and IMHO so important, that I had to return to respond again.
You outlined a case:
robin writes:
For example, honesty is considered a virtue. But if a murderer asked you which a way a man has gone, it might be better for you to tell a lie in that case. Why? Because there is a higher virtue that clashes with it (compassion for a victim).
That is so perfect for this discussion I simply couldn't let it pass.
Notice as we move through this it doesn't really matter if there is a GOD or not, since everyman, Theist, Agnostic or Atheist faces the same set of choices.
Suppose you do not know that the person is a murder, and so you tell him which way the person went and thus lead directly to another murder. Did you do wrong?
Suppose the man was a murderer, but had had a change of heart. He had been involved in a plan to kill someone but was now actively trying to prevent it? Suppose you don't tell him where the third person went, and thus he doesn't get there in time to save the person?
Suppose you do tell him, and he gets there in time to save the person?
There's no magic bullet of right and wrong, but rather we are charged to try our best to make the best decisions possible in each case.
That's as true for the Theist as for the Agnostic or the Atheist.
I believe the charge to do that, as well as the capability to make such decisions came from GOD. Others may think it purely social and that it evolved naturally over time.
The common point is that all of us seem to realize that those decisions need to be made. The threat to all of us though is when some group, whether Theist or Atheist or Agnostic tries to establish absolute objective standards for right or wrong. Then we move into the area of Law. IMHO that was one of the things Jesus came to remind us to avoid.
The thing we all need to fear is the arrival of someone with THE ANSWER, whether it is a Christian Fundamentalist, and Islamic Fundamentalist, a Hindu Fundamentalist, a Secular Fundamnetalist, anyone that comes to you with THE ANSWER is to be feared.
That's why the message of the Gospel is as it is, Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.
It makes you start by first valuing yourself. Then it tells you to treat others like you'd like to be treated. Finally, if you are doing that, then you will be loving GOD.
It's simple, but it's not easy. It requires a level of honesty many find uncomforting. And it requires work, and that you make choices, that you actually think before doing. But it also realizes that you will be working within the limits of your personal knowledge and abilities. GOD tells us if we tried, if we told the person where the third man was, and the person we told turns out to be a murderer, we will not be held accountable.
If on the otherhand, we do the same things in the full knowledge that the person was a muderer looking for his victim, we will certainly be held accountable.
And GOD will apply exactly the same set of rules when judging the Satanist or Agnostic or Atheist or Wiccan or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Taoist.
This message has been edited by jar, 04-11-2006 05:00 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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