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Author Topic:   The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 3118 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 1 of 159 (303474)
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


What if, one day it turned out that the evidence all pointed to the existence of a supreme deity; responsible for the creation and maintenance of our reality? How would you feel? What would you do?

Would it, in fact, have any bearing at all on the way you lived your life?

While I cannot say for certain how I'd react (I don't think many of us honestly can), I feel that it wouldn't really make a difference to me. I've made the decision to live my life regardless of whether or not God exists. Simply due to...well, look at the state of the world, not much happiness, cheer and goodwill to go around; at least not what you would expect if a benevolent God was in charge.
If God is in control, is that the sort of God you would want to worship? Should God actually be worshipped at all?


Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 159 (303475)
04-12-2006 9:26 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 667
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 3 of 159 (303476)
04-12-2006 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


Well since as you say, he's not a benevolant god, I would just lay low and hope he doesn't noticie me! :D
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 9:24 AM U can call me Cookie has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31681
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 159 (303477)
04-12-2006 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


Depends on which version of God you believe in, such as whether or not you accept the Bible as His word. If you don't, anything's possible. If you do, and you really do believe He is real, then you'd understand that your wellbeing depends on living by His rules. If you really believe He's real it would be hard to ignore that. You'd also understand that the misery in the world is the result of sin and that He has given us a way out of sin, and that we are obligated to help those who are suffering. If you understood all that, you might seriously consider living by it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 9:24 AM U can call me Cookie has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6623
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 5 of 159 (303480)
04-12-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


It pretty much depends on the nature of this god. If the god isn't much concerned about humanity, or allows people to be who they are, then all that would happen in my case is that I recognize that a god exists, but since very little in my life depends on the existence or non-existence of a god, not much else would change.

If this god, however, demanded obedience and punished disobedience then I suppose that I would be forced to obey -- especially if the god had the power to exact punishment. How obedient I would actually be would depend on how severe the punishment would be for disobedience and how aware this god was of my actions.

Now if the Christian fundamentalists are correct, and this god actually demands my love and trust, then I would be in trouble -- love and trust are things that are earned, not given, and if this god didn't behave in a manner I found worthy of love and trust, then I would be unable to love or trust it, and so would end up damned for eternity.


"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 9:24 AM U can call me Cookie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 63 by riVeRraT, posted 04-17-2006 6:48 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Mr Q. QQQQQ
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 159 (303510)
04-12-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


Vive la Resistance or skipping through flowery meadows?
I would certainly think it depends on the type of god.

A non-benevolent god would simply be an all powerful tyrant, tyrants need resisting, but how do you resist a god?

Possibly a Monty Pythonesque "Judean Peoples Front Crack Suicide Squad" could assail heaven?

kjsimons writes:

I would just lay low and hope he doesn't noticie me!

Or maybe this would be the best (though uncomfortable) option!

A benevolent god? In this imo unlikely scenario, erm, well, I don't think I can actually imagine what such a reality would be like, though I do picture more flowery meadows!

Off topic PS:

Chiroptera writes:

love and trust are things that are earned, not given

Thanks for that, excellent point!


This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 159 (303511)
04-12-2006 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Mr Q. QQQQQ
04-12-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Vive la Resistance or skipping through flowery meadows?
A non-benevolent god would simply be an all powerful tyrant, tyrants need resisting, but how do you resist a god?

Pick up a box set of Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series. It's basically a textbook on how to raise an army big enough to kill an amoral God.


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 159 (303512)
04-12-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
04-12-2006 9:42 AM


love and trust are things that are earned, not given . . .

Are you saying that love and trust are things that are in fact earned, or that they are things that ought to be earned?

To clarify, are you saying that it is emotionally impossible to love and trust some being who has not earned this love and trust?

Or are you saying that, possible or not, we ought not to love and trust someone who has not earned it?

And why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 04-12-2006 9:42 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6623
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 9 of 159 (303527)
04-12-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by robinrohan
04-12-2006 11:24 AM


I'm saying that most of us have very little control over who we love and trust. You cannot make someone love you, nor, if you are like most, can you just decide that you will love a particular person. If a god demands that I love it, then I am in big trouble since I cannot just decide that I am going to love it.


"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by robinrohan, posted 04-12-2006 11:24 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 3319 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 10 of 159 (303530)
04-12-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


I would figure that, having gotten by this long completely ignoring him and denying his existence, that I could continue on the same way. The only way I could be convinced to worship any god was if there was some concrete evidence of two things.

1. the existence of an afterlife.
2. god's control over your afterlife experience.

Then I might have to reconsider the whole worship thing...
but I still wouldn't go as far as Ms. Flickering Candle.

This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-12-2006 11:23 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 9:24 AM U can call me Cookie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 3:56 PM EZscience has responded

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 3118 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 11 of 159 (303586)
04-12-2006 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by EZscience
04-12-2006 12:20 PM


the afterlife
Chiro writes:

and so would end up damned for eternity.

EZ writes:

1. the existence of an afterlife.
2. god's control over your afterlife experience.

That's just it though, isn't it?
Even though the God might not be running this world to our liking, It still has control over the afterlife.

That just feels so much like blackmail to me!


"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine
This message is a reply to:
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EZscience
Member (Idle past 3319 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 12 of 159 (303588)
04-12-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 3:56 PM


Re: the afterlife
Cookie writes:

That just feels so much like blackmail to me!

That's how the churches keep their pews full.
Fear of an afterlife controlled by a god who demands X,Y, and Z
(according to the priests, anyway).

Religious following is basically founded on fear - fear that the priests might actually be right.

I remember a Muslim ceremony I attended once in English - Nika for a friend of mine who was marrying a muslim.
I couldn't believe how many times the engaged couple were instructed to 'fear God'.


This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 13 of 159 (303627)
04-12-2006 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


Simply due to...well, look at the state of the world, not much happiness, cheer and goodwill to go around; at least not what you would expect if a benevolent God was in charge

Well, people are not benevolent. The NT says that only God is good.

I don't expect that the world is good when I watch people who are not, and they're well, in the world.

It's like a garden. I expect if there's a gardener, it will be kept perfect, but if weeds grow, should I expect it to be always perfect if the gardener kills them yet they insist on growing? If the weeds insist on growing despite the gardener's attempts with weed-killer, then I suppose he will give up and make a new garden. He might even move a few good plants into his new garden.

I expect nothing from God, because his miracles suffice. I am alive and the sun shines, which is enough for me to expect that he exists, because all is good when the sun is on your face and there is no evil around. I wonder why?

If God is in control, is that the sort of God you would want to worship? Should God actually be worshipped at all?

But worshipping God would lead to a peaceful world. As far as I can see, it's the none worshippers that aren't interested in God and his ways, which are peace, patience, longsuffering, forgiveness.

If people aren't interested in good/God, then infact it's the Godless that are what make the planet Godless. For a violent person surely doesn't observe these good attributes God has, nor does he seek them.

It's always the same. God gets the blame.

A man goes to court for his crimes and blames the judge for not stopping him from commiting them. Yet is God not in control, if everybody EVENTUALLY gets justice?

If God is patient and longsuffering, then his ways aren't forceful. So I expect that God is clever enough to know what he is getting into if he makes a garden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 9:24 AM U can call me Cookie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 04-12-2006 10:13 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 15 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-13-2006 4:19 AM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 61 by Brad McFall, posted 04-16-2006 2:35 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 14 of 159 (303725)
04-12-2006 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by mike the wiz
04-12-2006 5:43 PM


But worshipping God would lead to a peaceful world. As far as I can see, it's the none worshippers that aren't interested in God and his ways, which are peace, patience, longsuffering, forgiveness.

Yeah, it's all those none worshippers that keep those religious wars going on for decades ... :rolleyes:


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 3118 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 15 of 159 (303745)
04-13-2006 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by mike the wiz
04-12-2006 5:43 PM


Well, people are not benevolent. The NT says that only God is good.

I don't expect that the world is good when I watch people who are not, and they're well, in the world.

People aren't the only things responsible for causing pain and suffering. Last time i checked, drought, famine, and disease did a pretty good job of it as well. Not to mention a tsunami or two.

It's like a garden. I expect if there's a gardener, it will be kept perfect, but if weeds grow, should I expect it to be always perfect if the gardener kills them yet they insist on growing? If the weeds insist on growing despite the gardener's attempts with weed-killer, then I suppose he will give up and make a new garden. He might even move a few good plants into his new garden.

So its "Worship me, or I won't let you into my all-new, all-improved
garden"?

I expect nothing from God, because his miracles suffice. I am alive and the sun shines, which is enough for me to expect that he exists, because all is good when the sun is on your face and there is no evil around. I wonder why?

You life might be coming up roses, the sun might be shining upon your face; but that does not mean that the sun isn't shining down upon a scene of adversity. Most of this world lives in adversity, the majority of them, God-fearing.

But worshipping God would lead to a peaceful world. As far as I can see, it's the none worshippers that aren't interested in God and his ways, which are peace, patience, longsuffering, forgiveness.

Then you haven't looked very far. As RAZD pointed out, religion has resulted in war and divisiveness for millenia. While religions may claim the mantle of peace, patience, and forgiveness, they have been, moreoften, symbols of strife. In fact, research has actually been done on whether or not religion correlates with higher levels of social health. The results are not good...

If people aren't interested in good/God, then infact it's the Godless that are what make the planet Godless. For a violent person surely doesn't observe these good attributes God has, nor does he seek them.

Non-religious people do bad things and good things. Religious people do bad things and good things. One cannot credit religion with only good things. See my above point.


"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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