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Author Topic:   The Results are in...There is a God! - What now?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 159 (303751)
04-13-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
04-12-2006 12:10 PM


Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
I'm saying that most of us have very little control over who we love and trust. You cannot make someone love you, nor, if you are like most, can you just decide that you will love a particular person. If a god demands that I love it, then I am in big trouble since I cannot just decide that I am going to love it.
God doesn't demand that you love and trust him. He demands that you be righteous. And you're not. Nor can you be under own steam. You sin because you are a sinner according to him.
His perogative, you would no doubt agree, to demand that you be righteous; not, you probably wouldn't agree, his fault that you can't comply.
He loves you even though you haven't earned it and has earned your love and trust in doing what he did so as to give you a way out of your prediciment.
Your just not willing to pay up. It should be said that it is not that lack of reciprocation for which you would be damned (in the unfortunate event that that is the road you travel). It will simply be that you remain unrighteous. And it is Gods perogative to damn the unrighteous

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 04-12-2006 12:10 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Larni, posted 04-13-2006 5:39 AM iano has replied
 Message 21 by EZscience, posted 04-13-2006 6:02 AM iano has replied
 Message 54 by ramoss, posted 04-13-2006 10:40 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 17 of 159 (303752)
04-13-2006 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 3:56 PM


Re: the afterlife
Blackmail pretty much somes it up.
"Love me! Or else!" sayeth the Lord (Larni. 10:23)
I would say that if the xian god was real all the other religious types would be feeling pretty pissed off for having backed the wrong horse.
If there was a god running the show what would that do to faith? People would have no reason to not believe in it.
Knowing the the xian god is a capricious one I would be shitting my pants if it was real.
This message has been edited by Larni, 04-13-2006 05:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 3:56 PM U can call me Cookie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 5:50 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 18 of 159 (303757)
04-13-2006 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
04-13-2006 5:18 AM


Re: Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
iano writes:
He loves you even though you haven't earned it and has earned your love and trust in doing what he did so as to give you a way out of your prediciment.
But it is your god who enforced our current 'predicament'. That is like giving us a terminal disease and not giving us the cure untill we jump through hoops for it.
Blackmail through and through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 5:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 5:47 AM Larni has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 159 (303759)
04-13-2006 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Larni
04-13-2006 5:39 AM


Larni demolishes a straw god
To be as sure as you sound you would have to presumably hold that an omnipotent God couldn't create man capable of independant choice and give him dominion over his creation (with all the positive/negative consequences that God could 'write into that job description')
On what reasoned basis would you hold to such a view - should you do so. As opposed to simply believing it (which is your free choice of course)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Larni, posted 04-13-2006 5:39 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Larni, posted 04-13-2006 6:03 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 20 of 159 (303761)
04-13-2006 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Larni
04-13-2006 5:24 AM


Re: the afterlife
If there was a god running the show what would that do to faith? People would have no reason to not believe in it.
Which is a succinct way of saying that any love we might have for him subsequent to his being made manifest would have trouble in being freey given.
Which perhaps explains to those who demand evidence before they will believe why God doesn't provide such outright evidence as to his existance

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Larni, posted 04-13-2006 5:24 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Larni, posted 04-13-2006 6:12 AM iano has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 21 of 159 (303762)
04-13-2006 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by iano
04-13-2006 5:18 AM


Re: Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
iano writes:
God doesn't demand that you love and trust him. He demands that you be righteous.
Sorry, but I seem to remember all kinds of places in the Bible where we are ordered to LOVE God and OBEY him.
And what the hell does 'righteous' really mean, anyway?
Isn't that just a code of behavior dictated by priests?
iano writes:
He loves you even though you haven't earned it
Any evidence of this? I just don't get that impression. Life seems to have far too many trials and tribulations that we merely survive, often without earning anything.
iano writes:
Your just not willing to pay up.
Neither am I. Not without a better indication of what I am supposed to be paying for.
This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-13-2006 05:02 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 5:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-13-2006 6:15 AM EZscience has not replied
 Message 25 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 6:26 AM EZscience has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 22 of 159 (303763)
04-13-2006 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
04-13-2006 5:47 AM


Re: Larni demolishes a straw god
iano writes:
To be as sure as you sound you would have to presumably hold that an omnipotent God couldn't create man capable of independant choice and give him dominion over his creation (with all the positive/negative consequences that God could 'write into that job description')
But the xian god did more than write the consequences into the job description; it made sure -by use of it's omnipotence and omniscience- that our ancestors would get it wrong and (by it's whim) be in a position to HAVE to accept it's laws and rules etc.
It's not even the fault of the individual either. Your god blames us for deeds we have not committed, it decided (for an unknown reason, making it up as it goes along?) that the child of the sinner is also to blame.
If your god had never made the apple and the serpent we could not have sinned.
All this is set as parameters of existance by your god.
If it made us to not by able to sin we would not be in the position it forced us into i.e. having to abide by its' rules.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 5:47 AM iano has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 23 of 159 (303766)
04-13-2006 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by iano
04-13-2006 5:50 AM


Re: the afterlife
iano writes:
Which is a succinct way of saying that any love we might have for him subsequent to his being made manifest would have trouble in being freey given.
So what?
Xian god demands we love it without thought or concideration. As a free thinking individual I know why I love the things I love. They mean something to me. That does not reduce the love I feel or express.
If one knew a good god existed I would have no problem loving it. The xian god is hardly good by human standards (the only standards that count).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 5:50 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 6:32 AM Larni has replied

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 24 of 159 (303767)
04-13-2006 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by EZscience
04-13-2006 6:02 AM


Re: Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
And what the hell does 'righteous' really mean, anyway?
Isn't that just a code of behavior dictated by priests?
Taking what i have observed of Ian's beliefs, i'd take take a stab that righteous means Christian, to him.
Maybe i'm wrong. let us know, iano.

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by EZscience, posted 04-13-2006 6:02 AM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 6:55 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 25 of 159 (303768)
04-13-2006 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by EZscience
04-13-2006 6:02 AM


Re: Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
Love God with all your heart soul and mind. Love you neighbour as yourself. This is the summation of the law of God .
But the intention of the law is not that in abiding by it that we will somehow be okay with God. We can't afterall, under own power, follow it. Surely it would be unreasonable for God to set up a requirement that we cannot hope to follow under own steam.
But the purpose of the law wasn't what it seems at first flush - the mistake of Religion is to think so. The purpose of the law was to make us realise that we cannot keep the law
And what the hell does 'righteous' really mean, anyway?
It means that we never break even the merest letter of Gods law: never selfish, never covetous, never unrighteously angry, never lie, never cheat etc etc. Impossible on our own to achieve.
Any evidence of this? I just don't get that impression. Life seems to have far too many trials and tribulations that we merely survive, often without earning anything.
Do you enjoy the smell of coffee? God gave you senses with which to enjoy that smells, touchs, tastes, music, art, excitement. Have you ever had an orgasm? God didn't need to make it any more pleasureble that hunger for food. But he wants that you enjoy pleasure. Do you like being in love? God gave you that ability.
If life is bad at times or much of the time, you are pointing the finger at the wrong person. Consider for a moment where most of the misery in the world originates from. From our own sin. Our sin.
Neither am I. Not without a better indication of what I am supposed to be paying for.
If your heart truly wanted more indication then more indication you would recieve. Up to an including a personal meeting and coming into relationship with him that would last from whenever that happened until all eternity
And if your heart doesn't want him (on his terms not yours) you wont's have him.
As friend Jar says: its a simple as that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by EZscience, posted 04-13-2006 6:02 AM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by EZscience, posted 04-13-2006 7:13 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 159 (303771)
04-13-2006 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Larni
04-13-2006 6:12 AM


Re: the afterlife
Xian god demands we love it without thought or concideration.
From which stone did you lick this notion
If one knew a good god existed I would have no problem loving it.
Agreed. He is aware you don't love him. Fully aware. And it he doesn't demand that you love him without reason. That would be unreasonable. The only way you can love God is to know him. It follows that the initial step is to get to know God, not to jump to thinking that you have to love him without knowing him
The xian god is hardly good by human standards (the only standards that count).
If God exists then his standards are what counts. He can beat any arguement we have hands down because he is in possession of all the facts. We are in possession of only some.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Larni, posted 04-13-2006 6:12 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 04-13-2006 7:10 AM iano has replied
 Message 40 by Larni, posted 04-13-2006 8:01 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 27 of 159 (303778)
04-13-2006 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by U can call me Cookie
04-13-2006 6:15 AM


Iano the Righteous (but not self of course)
Taking what i have observed of Ian's beliefs, i'd take take a stab that righteous means Christian, to him.
Righteous just means righteous. Jesus was righteous but he wasn't a Christian (any more that Marx was a Marxist). God the Father and Spirit is/are righteous but he isn't a Christian. Moving into our realm: Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness but he wasn't a Christian.
The word Christian is a label which applies to people who have believed God and what he says and have had God credit (or exchange) that belief as righteousness. It doesn't matter whether one applies the label Christian to the package, what matters is the contents of the package. Righteous or not.
(as an aside: It follows that someone who says they are a Christian may or may not be. The package might have a Christian label but be completely devoid of contents)
This message has been edited by iano, 13-Apr-2006 11:56 AM
This message has been edited by iano, 13-Apr-2006 11:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-13-2006 6:15 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-13-2006 8:16 AM iano has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 159 (303780)
04-13-2006 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by U can call me Cookie
04-12-2006 9:24 AM


No groveling required
UCCMC writes:
What if, one day it turned out that the evidence all pointed to the existence of a supreme deity; responsible for the creation and maintenance of our reality? How would you feel? What would you do?
Would it, in fact, have any bearing at all on the way you lived your life?
While I cannot say for certain how I'd react (I don't think many of us honestly can), I feel that it wouldn't really make a difference to me. I've made the decision to live my life regardless of whether or not God exists. Simply due to...well, look at the state of the world, not much happiness, cheer and goodwill to go around; at least not what you would expect if a benevolent God was in charge.
I don't think I could react until God drew me to Him.
NIV writes:
Phil 1:3-6--I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
In other words, IF we assume that God started the relationship in our hearts, the issue then becomes our relationship with God.
UCCMC writes:
That's just it though, isn't it?
Even though the God might not be running this world to our liking, It still has control over the afterlife.
That just feels so much like blackmail to me!
So within the context of your hypothesis, you and God have a lot to discuss. It seems to me that a fair and just God would offer us humans some sort of plea bargain, don't you agree? After all, if mere human D.A.'s can do it, why can't God do it?
GOD: OK, OK. You don't have to grovel on the ground and you dont have to give up your personality. What I DO want you to do is to get to know me, allow yourself to open up to me so that we can love each other, and go and do likewise to your neighbor!
HUMAN: Do you mean that I just have to try as hard as I can to love you and everyone else?
GOD: Yes. I will help you by giving you MY Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-12-2006 9:24 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-13-2006 7:30 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 159 (303781)
04-13-2006 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
04-13-2006 6:32 AM


Knowing God
Iano writes:
The only way you can love God is to know him. It follows that the initial step is to get to know God, not to jump to thinking that you have to love him without knowing him
I think that the only way that we can know God is if He first knows us. And I think that this scripture covers that reality.
NIV writes:
Phil 1:3-6--I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Notice that Paul is saying that it is God who begins the "good work" in us. It says nothing about us having to know Him first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 6:32 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 7:41 AM Phat has replied

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 30 of 159 (303782)
04-13-2006 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
04-13-2006 6:26 AM


Re: Chiroptera demolishes a straw god
iano writes:
Love you neighbour as yourself.
We could use your help over on the 'immigration' thread.
That's hardly the kind of sentiment we are getting from the most out-spoken Christian on the thread.
iano writes:
We can't afterall, under own power, follow it....The purpose of the law was to make us realise that we cannot keep the law
OK. I have heard this before. So HE sets rules we are unable to follow without HIS help. Isn't that like stacking the deck? Setting us up for failure in order to elicit dependency? Hardly seems fair.
iano writes:
Do you enjoy the smell of coffee?
Got one right now. Good french roast espresso. But I can think a lot of practical (naturalistic) explanations for the existence of all these types of sensation.
iano writes:
If life is bad at times or much of the time, you are pointing the finger at the wrong person.
So we are to thank him for all things pleasurable and blame ourselves for all things that aren't? This seems like real confirmation of Chiroptera's tag line.
iano writes:
If your heart truly wanted more indication then more indication you would recieve.
Well I think with my brain, not my heart,
and my brain is a doubting organ by its nature.
Because of my brain (that god gave me?) I feel compelled to remain in denial of his existence.
This message has been edited by EZscience, 04-13-2006 06:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 6:26 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 04-13-2006 7:20 AM EZscience has replied
 Message 38 by iano, posted 04-13-2006 7:57 AM EZscience has not replied

  
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