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Author Topic:   God is cruel
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 241 of 301 (304197)
04-14-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-13-2006 11:28 PM


So.
God has created a universe that is not Just, or Fair?
why then do you feel that he should be worshiped?
Out of fear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-13-2006 11:28 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 12:32 PM Heathen has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 242 of 301 (304204)
04-14-2006 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Heathen
04-12-2006 7:19 PM


I really want you, or another of the Christan folk on here to explain to me the fairness or Justice involved in the fall.
We get to know God.
Why is it fair or just that we as a human race, should suffer as a result of Adam and Eve's lack of obedience?
How can one appreciate the light, until they know what being in the dark is all about?
why are we not in an 'eden state' and given the opportunity to individually decide whether or not to stay in that state?
How would you know you were in an eden state?
I cannot worship anyone I see as being cruel or unfair.
I completely understand that.
Your life is a work in motion. All that is bad will point to Him, eventually. Even if it has to be on your death bed, someplace we are all destined to be.
If you apprciate being alive, despite all the "bad" you have, and God exists, then you can thank Him.
The bible says we are to worship Him in spirit and truth. You might even be a worshipper and not know it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Heathen, posted 04-12-2006 7:19 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 12:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 243 of 301 (304215)
04-14-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by riVeRraT
04-14-2006 11:33 AM


I really want you, or another of the Christan folk on here to explain to me the fairness or Justice involved in the fall.
quote:
We get to know God.
Why is it fair or just that we as a human race, should suffer as a result of Adam and Eve's lack of obedience?
quote:
How can one appreciate the light, until they know what being in the dark is all about?
Ok... you have totally ignored both questions and spat out some rhetoric... why did you bother?
riverrat writes:
How would you know you were in an eden state
I mean 'eden state' in the sense of not having to toil, not knowing death.. i.e. a pre-fall state as described in genesis
riverrat writes:
If you apprciate being alive, despite all the "bad" you have, and God exists, then you can thank Him.
The bible says we are to worship Him in spirit and truth. You might even be a worshipper and not know it
I, for the most part enjoy and appreciate my life,. If god exists, and if I meet him I will thank him for my life (If he is responsible), but I will also ask him why he appears to play games... why he allows such cruelty, pain, hatred, suffering and bigotry to exist in his name.
If God exists, and if he is all knowing, all powerful, It sure seems like he's popped out of his office and left a note saying "back in 5 millenia".
That is of course what it seems like to my puny human mind... but then.. he created it did he not? how else should I reach conclusions but by using my 'skewed', 'fallen' perception?
This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-14-2006 12:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by riVeRraT, posted 04-14-2006 11:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by riVeRraT, posted 04-14-2006 1:51 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 250 by lfen, posted 04-14-2006 2:01 PM Heathen has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 244 of 301 (304218)
04-14-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Heathen
04-14-2006 10:33 AM


Creavolution writes:
So.
God has created a universe that is not Just, or Fair?
why then do you feel that he should be worshiped?
Out of fear?
Nice bait and switch.
You've also thrown in the standard "begging the question" logical fallacy at the same time.
Kudos to you Creavolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 10:33 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 12:44 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 245 of 301 (304219)
04-14-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 2:04 AM


let's at least stick to one point for a moment.
You're not suggesting they didn't know what death was?
They may well have seen death, but why would you think they knew that was bad? In addition, the story GOD told them was either a lie, or a far more subtle point that there is absolutely no possibility they could understand.
Now on to the differences between humans and the rest of the animals. I've covered my position on that in other threads here at EvC. I do think that there is a difference and it's directly related to the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I think humans are vastly different in the extent, intent, scope of intellect and most of all, in empathy. The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human. There is nothing else like it known.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 2:04 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 2:44 PM jar has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 246 of 301 (304221)
04-14-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 12:32 PM


Bait and switch?
I'm just asking the next logical question... Not trying to catch anyone out.
you said:
Me personally, I don't think it is necessarilly 'fair'. I'm almost positive it isn't 'just' either
It is, however, exactly how actions and reactions appear to work in real life.
Thus, if you believe God response to A&E's disobedience was the fall, then you must accept that God is Neither Fair nor Just.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 12:32 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 3:07 PM Heathen has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 247 of 301 (304225)
04-14-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ReverendDG
04-14-2006 2:26 AM


Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
Rev writes:
if you read genesis, it never really talks about death until god says something about it
How literal are you going to get here?
The Scriptures are silent on many topics. Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't exist until the time it's mentioned. Furthermore, if God is giving them a warning that they will die, it seems to be a safe assumption that they understood somehow, in some way, what death was.
Rev writes:
hmm you don't consider the line about being the one being made in the image of god not being better than all the other animals?
I'm talking about the perceived morality of the animals in the Scriptures. The Scriptures are not silent on this matter-- and they make it clear that they know God.
Rev writes:
verse where it says this please
I suppose that one could start with Genesis 1:25 which says...
NIV writes:
God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
And then move along to Job...
NIV writes:
But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish of the sea inform you.
Which of all these does not know
that the hand of the LORD has done this?
You seem to be confusing the God-given authority of humanity as perceived within the Scriptures with the perception of the innocence of the animals when contrasted against rebellious humans within the Scriptures.
I'm talking about the later. Not the former.
Rev writes:
human pride shows up in genesis via the fact that the authors write that we are made in gods image, that alone says we are better than other animals (at least as far as the authors of genesis thought)
That's exactly what I'm not arguing with. There's no doubt that humanity appears to be the most exalted of God's creations. The point that I'm arguing, however, is the point that Adam and Eve's participation in the tree did not enable them to surpass the animal's in regards to doing God's will.
Nature itself, whether the behavior of animals or the weather for example, is often overwhelmingly portrayed as being in conformance with God's will. Even Balaam's ass perceived the Angel of the God before Balaam did. God had to actually enable the ass to speak in order to get Balaam to notice something which should have been obvious.
Humanity, as portrayed in the Scriptures, does not appear to conform to the pattern of obedience and innocence often depicted in regards to the animals God made. We seem to be somewhat unique in this regard.
Rev writes:
i would say they are less cought up in self than us rather than they know god better than us, what i mean is they don't have things like human relations to effect perceptions.
Is this to say that humanity is depicted as more being more selfish than animals in the Scriptures?
Rev writes:
i wouldn't say animals are morally superior, they have no morals at all, they are amoral most likely, and do not precieve things the way humanity sometimes does
That's not what the Scriptures seem to portray.
Rev writes:
maybe the author was trying to say something, but its not remotely a common belief by anyone - we can't say eather way unless we can get time travel to work
That's not true.
The concept of the serpent being something more than a serpent is a nearly universal theme found throughout a tremendous range divers cultures. We don't need a time travelling device to see this either--because we have more than an abundant supply of ancient historical records to verify what they believed back then.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 04-14-2006 01:15 PM
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 04-14-2006 01:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ReverendDG, posted 04-14-2006 2:26 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ReverendDG, posted 04-14-2006 9:14 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 248 of 301 (304231)
04-14-2006 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by riVeRraT
04-14-2006 9:28 AM


quote:
You cannot test anyones validity of faith.
Yes, I accept my wording was sloppy there. I meant, of course, the depth of your OWN faith, not it's logical validity.
quote:
I have stated elsewhere that my faith has not reached that level. I wish it was.
I'm intrigued that you wish your faith was deeper, though. To what end?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by riVeRraT, posted 04-14-2006 9:28 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 249 of 301 (304232)
04-14-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Heathen
04-14-2006 12:14 PM


Ok... you have totally ignored both questions and spat out some rhetoric... why did you bother?
It is not rhetoric, but truth. Plain and simple.
I mean 'eden state' in the sense of not having to toil, not knowing death.. i.e. a pre-fall state as described in genesis
RIght, how would you know that you were in that state, unless you knew about the other state?
Maybe we are in an eden state of sorts.
If God exists, and if he is all knowing, all powerful, It sure seems like he's popped out of his office and left a note saying "back in 5 millenia".
He, did, and He didn't. He left us the Holy Spirit. I do not find your thoughts unrighteous, or without reason, just maybe lack of understanding of the truth, or how God is supposed to work in your life.
The Holy Spirit is in you, you are free to talk to God any time you want. Sometimes His answer take a while to be answered, and other times they don't.
I will gladly share all my experiences with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 12:14 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 2:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 250 of 301 (304235)
04-14-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Heathen
04-14-2006 12:14 PM


I mean 'eden state' in the sense of not having to toil, not knowing death.. i.e. a pre-fall state as described in genesis
The way Shri Ramana Maharshi talked about his life is very like to what you describe as an eden state.
Ramana did not identify himself with his body. He would say things like the body has to toil, get ill, die but that he only witnessed those things, that his state never changed.
Ramana sometimes compared pure consciousness to a movie screen. When fire is projected on the screen it doesn't burn and when the ocean is projected on it is doesn't get wet.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 12:14 PM Heathen has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 251 of 301 (304237)
04-14-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by riVeRraT
04-14-2006 1:51 PM


riverrat writes:
It is not rhetoric, but truth. Plain and simple.
But you simply avoided the questions... I'm not even sure why you quoted me as your response had little to do with what I asked.
riverrat writes:
RIght, how would you know that you were in that state, unless you knew about the other state?
My existance has little in common with that of A&E pre fall. (working, toiling, illness, death etc.)
riverrat writes:
Maybe we are in an eden state of sorts.
maybe...maybe not.
maybe we are all part of my imagination... maybe we are electrons circling a nucleus... maybe we are crutons in a universal soup... maybe...maybe....maybe...
riverrat writes:
just maybe lack of understanding of the truth
So... can you... or anyone explain to me what is fair or just about humanity today suffering for the actions of A&E all those years ago..
I have been simply seeking to find out how a christian can reconcile that with the notion of a benevolent/merciful (non-cruel) God.
No one seems to be getting close to explaining this.
For me.. this is probobly the single biggest obstacle (amongst others)to 'worshipping' a God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by riVeRraT, posted 04-14-2006 1:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 2:19 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 04-15-2006 6:42 AM Heathen has not replied
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 04-15-2006 6:53 AM Heathen has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 301 (304242)
04-14-2006 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Heathen
04-14-2006 2:10 PM


I have been simply seeking to find out how a christian can reconcile that with the notion of a benevolent/merciful (non-cruel) God.
No one seems to be getting close to explaining this.
For me.. this is probobly the single biggest obstacle (amongst others)to 'worshipping' a God.
It's been explained pretty well already, I think, but maybe C.S. Lewis would make the case better. His book The Problem of Pain discusses all this. It's under copyright so won't be found online, but this site does a pretty good job of spelling out his argument:
... The main argument of The Problem of Pain is preceded by a presentation of an atheist objection to the existence of God based on the observable futility of the universe. The book starts on a personal note: "Not many years ago when I was an atheist . ". There follows a compelling picture of a universe filled with futility and chance, darkness and cold, misery and suffering; a spectacle of civilizations passing away, of human race scientifically condemned to a final doom and of a universe bound to die. Thus, "either there is no spirit behind the universe, or else a spirit indifferent to good and evil, or else an evil spirit". On the other hand, "if the universe is so bad, or even half so bad, how on earth did human beings ever come to attribute it to the activity of a wise and good Creator? [ . ] The spectacle of the universe as revealed by experience can never have been ground for religion: it must always have been something in spite of which religion, acquired from a different source, was held". But, where should we look for the sources?
... How could a bad creature have come from the hands of a good Creator? The Christian answer is that it did not: man, and the rest of creation, was initially good, but through the abuse of freedom, man made himself an abominable, wicked creature he now is. This doctrine, which finds no support in science ” only in the Scripture, in the human heart and in newspapers ” is particularly foreign to the modern mind, which operates within a progressivist and materialistic paradigm. Lewis is aware of his reader's disposition; from the outset, he insists that "science has nothing to say for or against the doctrine of the Fall"....
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-14-2006 02:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 2:10 PM Heathen has replied

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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 253 of 301 (304249)
04-14-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
04-14-2006 2:19 PM


faith writes:
It's been explained pretty well already
I disagree. maybe I'm missing it... can you show me where that particular question:
how a christian can reconcile that with the notion of a benevolent/merciful (non-cruel) God.
has been answered?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 2:19 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 254 of 301 (304250)
04-14-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
04-14-2006 12:38 PM


Re: let's at least stick to one point for a moment.
jar writes:
They may well have seen death, but why would you think they knew that was bad?
Because God apparently gave this in the sense of a warning not to do it or else something dire would happen.
NIV writes:
And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.
In order for what you're suggesting to be true, one would have to almost rephrase this passage entirely. In other words, why bother warning them at all is this was ultimately good?
While I agree that God can bring good out of evil, I would be very cautious about claiming that they did a good thing that ultimately brought about a good end result.
In fact, if it was a good thing, then why didn't he just say something to effect of 'Well done faithful friend. Now enter with us into paradise' when they partook of it?
jar writes:
In addition, the story GOD told them was either a lie, or a far more subtle point that there is absolutely no possibility they could understand.
I thought you wanted to 'stick to one point for a moment'?
Besides that, the story GOD told them was either the truth, or a far more obvious point that there is absolutely no possibility they couldn't understand.
jar writes:
Now on to the differences between humans and the rest of the animals. I've covered my position on that in other threads here at EvC. I do think that there is a difference and it's directly related to the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I think humans are vastly different in the extent, intent, scope of intellect and most of all, in empathy.
I disagree with the empathy part.
It seems to me that empathy can be greatly enhanced by the scope of one's intellect. So, if the animals were more intelligent than humans, it seems probable that they could also be far more empathic than humans too.
jar writes:
The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human. There is nothing else like it known.
No it's not.
There are plenty of primitive non-lethal symbiotic relationships known amongst the various species around the world. If one added to these species the same level 'intellectual' understanding that humans had, they would most likely put humanity to shame in regards to compassion.
Furthermore, many problems in life directly result from our inability to fairly intellectually understand the world from other's perspectives. In a sense, they are simply unaware of the struggles that others are going through.
I guess it seems to me that it's a matter of indifference in contrast to ignorance. If animals possessed as much intellect as humans did, I suspect that the concept of a 'veterinarian' wouldn't be such a uniquely human idea. I'm not altogether convinced there aren't primitive 'veterinarian' ideas amongst the animals anyway. In fact, if animals possessed as much intellect as humans did, I suspect that the concept of a 'humanitarian' would instead become a equally animalistic concept.
The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 12:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 4:51 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 255 of 301 (304255)
04-14-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Heathen
04-14-2006 12:44 PM


Creavolution writes:
Bait and switch?
Yes. Bait and switch.
Here's the bait...
Creavolution writes:
Thus, if you believe God response to A&E's disobedience was the fall...
...and here's the switch...
Creavolution writes:
...then you must accept that God is Neither Fair nor Just.
Actually. No. We don't have to accept any such thing.
Care to explain why it can only be the conclusion you're putting forth?
And, by the way, here's the example of when you were begging the question...
Creavolution writes:
why then do you feel that he should be worshiped?
Out of fear?
See?
But, just to be fair, no.
We worship in his Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 12:44 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 3:17 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

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