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Author
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Topic: God is cruel
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Bet you're thinking about green elephant as you read this sentance. Thing is, you can't avoid an initial mental reaction, if you walk down the road and see a bus, somewhere in your head you thinking 'bus'
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 190 of 301 (301741)
04-06-2006 6:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 189 by DorfMan
04-06-2006 6:10 PM
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dorfman writes: Facts are neither fair not just, they are facts
but god has condemned us to this existance right? so therefore god has condemned us to an existance that is neither fair nor Just (according to what you say above), therefore God is neither fair nor just
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 189 by DorfMan, posted 04-06-2006 6:10 PM | | DorfMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 197 by DorfMan, posted 04-07-2006 6:43 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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cathlic scientist writes: Understood. I haven't been equating 'an initial mental reaction' with thinking.
Wish those damn goalposts would stay still!
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 214 of 301 (303173)
04-11-2006 10:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 197 by DorfMan
04-07-2006 6:43 PM
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Dorfman writes: What has God to do with them
God created everything did he not?
Dorfman writes: Adam and Eve decided for themselves and their off-off-offspring, and so do we. I see no condemnation by God.
You're skipping my point. Adam and Eve decided... but Is it Fair or Just that we should pay for their mistakes? God has determined that we should, God has determined that we are doomed to saty in a fallen state unless he decides we should be lifted out of it. Is that fair, Just or merciful?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 197 by DorfMan, posted 04-07-2006 6:43 PM | | DorfMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 215 by DorfMan, posted 04-11-2006 11:24 AM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 216 of 301 (303204)
04-11-2006 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 215 by DorfMan
04-11-2006 11:24 AM
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dorfman writes: I'm not interested that you change your point of view and I'm not interested in changing mine.
I have not changed my point of view... I am asking the same questions. Is it fair Just or merciful that we should pay for the actions of two people thousands of years ago? Can you point me to where you have answered this question?
Dorfman writes: As for God deciding we should be lifted out of our fallen state? I've not heard that said before and it is a strange idea. But, you go for it.
THe idea that we cannot save our selves but that god must save us has been explained to me by many christians on this site. It is their Idea of Salvation, not mine.
Dorfman writes: You clearly do not understand that God's ways are not our ways. The fair, just, and merciful ways in which God is all these things, is certainly too abstract for you.
So you understand God then? that must be one hell of a brain in your head to understand the unfathomable. You will then be able to explain to me why it is fair that we are paying for the actions of Adam and Eve, when We had no control over their actions, no input into their choices, no knowledge of their choices. why/how is that fair?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by DorfMan, posted 04-11-2006 11:24 AM | | DorfMan has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 217 of 301 (303648)
04-12-2006 7:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 215 by DorfMan
04-11-2006 11:24 AM
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creavolution writes: You're skipping my point. Adam and Eve decided... but Is it Fair or Just that we should pay for their mistakes? God has determined that we should, God has determined that we are doomed to saty in a fallen state unless he decides we should be lifted out of it. Is that fair, Just or merciful? Dorfman writes: I have answered your question several times and you are not willing to accept my answers
NO you haven't, if I am mistaken please show me where you did. I really want you, or another of the Christan folk on here to explain to me the fairness or Justice involved in the fall. Why is it fair or just that we as a human race, should suffer as a result of Adam and Eve's lack of obedience? why are we not in an 'eden state' and given the opportunity to individually decide whether or not to stay in that state? (This is a different thing to being given the opportunity to dig our way out of the fallen state.. after all Why am I Born 'fallen' beacause of A&E's mistake?) This (to me anyway) is a very big problem with Christianity, and this is the first point in the Bible where God shows how cruel he really is. I cannot worship anyone I see as being cruel or unfair. edit to correct quote This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-13-2006 11:04 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by DorfMan, posted 04-11-2006 11:24 AM | | DorfMan has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 220 of 301 (303868)
04-13-2006 10:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 219 by iano
04-12-2006 7:43 PM
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Re: The fall was just because God is just
thanks Iano.
iano writes: you also must accept that a consequence of that Fall is skewed thinking on our part. In the sense here, a skewed sense of what justice is. Not a totally useless sense - just a skewed one.
Where is this 'skewed sense of justice' supported biblically? I thought the apple was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, so when A&E ate from it, they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Seems like they had the 'skewed' knowledge before thay ate.
iano writes: The Fall would guarentee that we would be incorrect
yet you seem certain you are correct? what makes you sure that your interpretation of the bible isn't 'skewed'?
iano writes: In wanting to know things that are the sole preserve of God you want in fact to have the same knowledge as God. You want to be like God in other words. Which was precisely what caused A&E's fall. You show here that you wouldn't in fact have done any better than them
hmmm no... all I ask is that I be given the same opportunity adam and eve were to choose... A choice is not a choice unless you are presented with ALL the information and ability to make an intelligent choice. I do not have (according to the fall) the ability to make a rational choice, thus how on earth can I trust that choosing god is the correct choice?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 219 by iano, posted 04-12-2006 7:43 PM | | iano has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 221 of 301 (303869)
04-13-2006 10:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 218 by jar
04-12-2006 7:32 PM
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Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
edit: well jar, the topic here is the justice of the fall. I guess we should stay on topic thanx tho  This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-13-2006 11:01 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 218 by jar, posted 04-12-2006 7:32 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 222 by jar, posted 04-13-2006 11:21 AM | | Heathen has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 223 of 301 (303885)
04-13-2006 11:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 222 by jar
04-13-2006 11:21 AM
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Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
personally I do not accept genesis or the fall as fact. But I am trying to rationalise how someone who does, can accept God as being anything other than cruel.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 222 by jar, posted 04-13-2006 11:21 AM | | jar has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 224 by lfen, posted 04-13-2006 1:47 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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So. God has created a universe that is not Just, or Fair? why then do you feel that he should be worshiped? Out of fear?
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 243 of 301 (304215)
04-14-2006 12:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 242 by riVeRraT
04-14-2006 11:33 AM
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I really want you, or another of the Christan folk on here to explain to me the fairness or Justice involved in the fall.
quote:
We get to know God.
Why is it fair or just that we as a human race, should suffer as a result of Adam and Eve's lack of obedience?
quote:
How can one appreciate the light, until they know what being in the dark is all about?
Ok... you have totally ignored both questions and spat out some rhetoric... why did you bother?
riverrat writes: How would you know you were in an eden state
I mean 'eden state' in the sense of not having to toil, not knowing death.. i.e. a pre-fall state as described in genesis
riverrat writes: If you apprciate being alive, despite all the "bad" you have, and God exists, then you can thank Him. The bible says we are to worship Him in spirit and truth. You might even be a worshipper and not know it I, for the most part enjoy and appreciate my life,. If god exists, and if I meet him I will thank him for my life (If he is responsible), but I will also ask him why he appears to play games... why he allows such cruelty, pain, hatred, suffering and bigotry to exist in his name. If God exists, and if he is all knowing, all powerful, It sure seems like he's popped out of his office and left a note saying "back in 5 millenia". That is of course what it seems like to my puny human mind... but then.. he created it did he not? how else should I reach conclusions but by using my 'skewed', 'fallen' perception? This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-14-2006 12:16 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 242 by riVeRraT, posted 04-14-2006 11:33 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Bait and switch? I'm just asking the next logical question... Not trying to catch anyone out. you said:
Me personally, I don't think it is necessarilly 'fair'. I'm almost positive it isn't 'just' either It is, however, exactly how actions and reactions appear to work in real life. Thus, if you believe God response to A&E's disobedience was the fall, then you must accept that God is Neither Fair nor Just.
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 251 of 301 (304237)
04-14-2006 2:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 249 by riVeRraT
04-14-2006 1:51 PM
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riverrat writes: It is not rhetoric, but truth. Plain and simple.
But you simply avoided the questions... I'm not even sure why you quoted me as your response had little to do with what I asked.
riverrat writes: RIght, how would you know that you were in that state, unless you knew about the other state? My existance has little in common with that of A&E pre fall. (working, toiling, illness, death etc.)
riverrat writes: Maybe we are in an eden state of sorts.
maybe...maybe not. maybe we are all part of my imagination... maybe we are electrons circling a nucleus... maybe we are crutons in a universal soup... maybe...maybe....maybe...
riverrat writes: just maybe lack of understanding of the truth
So... can you... or anyone explain to me what is fair or just about humanity today suffering for the actions of A&E all those years ago.. I have been simply seeking to find out how a christian can reconcile that with the notion of a benevolent/merciful (non-cruel) God. No one seems to be getting close to explaining this. For me.. this is probobly the single biggest obstacle (amongst others)to 'worshipping' a God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 249 by riVeRraT, posted 04-14-2006 1:51 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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Message 253 of 301 (304249)
04-14-2006 2:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
04-14-2006 2:19 PM
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faith writes: It's been explained pretty well already
I disagree. maybe I'm missing it... can you show me where that particular question:
how a christian can reconcile that with the notion of a benevolent/merciful (non-cruel) God.
has been answered?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 252 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 2:19 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1310 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: 09-20-2005
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You, yourself said:
Me personally, I don't think it is necessarilly 'fair'. I'm almost positive it isn't 'just' either My response was:
Thus, if you believe God response to A&E's disobedience was the fall......then you must accept that God is Neither Fair nor Just. a) Do you believe that the fall and the ensuing state of humanity was/is fair or Just? (you answered No above) b)Do you believe that the Fall was God's response to A&E's disobedience? yes/no? if you answer Yes to (b), then it follows that God's actions (in making all of humanity suffer for A&E's actions) was not fair nor Just. It seems like the only conclusion to me (speaking, of course, using my fallen, skewed mind) what is your alternative? This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-14-2006 03:17 PM
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