|
Author
|
Topic: God is cruel
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
But that's not true. They knew to obey God before they partook in the tree. How? Without a knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, how would they know? Sure GOD says don't do something. But until you know right from wrong, that has no meaning.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
let's at least stick to one point for a moment.
You're not suggesting they didn't know what death was? They may well have seen death, but why would you think they knew that was bad? In addition, the story GOD told them was either a lie, or a far more subtle point that there is absolutely no possibility they could understand. Now on to the differences between humans and the rest of the animals. I've covered my position on that in other threads here at EvC. I do think that there is a difference and it's directly related to the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I think humans are vastly different in the extent, intent, scope of intellect and most of all, in empathy. The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human. There is nothing else like it known.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
How could A&E know to obey one voice over another?
jar writes: They may well have seen death, but why would you think they knew that was bad? to which Mr. Ex Nilo replies" quote:
Because God apparently gave this in the sense of a warning not to do it or else something dire would happen.
So what? The serpent said "Never mind, it's okay to eat the fruit." How is that different from what GOD said? Why do you think A&E would know to obey one but not the other?
In order for what you're suggesting to be true, one would have to almost rephrase this passage entirely. In other words, why bother warning them at all is this was ultimately good? Not at all. The reason that you wouldn't reword the passage is that would not work as the plot device for the storyteller making up the story. The story teller is trying to explain why things die. It's a nice series of Just So stories that explain why things die, why you should take a day off, why you have to till the fields instead of just grazing off the land, why you should fear snakes and why women are less than men. edited to change subtitle This message has been edited by jar, 04-14-2006 04:04 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 259 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:18 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
Message 260 of 301 (304286)
04-14-2006 5:23 PM
|
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:18 PM
|
|
Re: How could A&E know to obey one voice over another?
Faith writes: They should know the voice of God because they were made in his image. Sorry, but what does that have to do with knowing right from wrong or whether to obey what he said? Before the GIFT from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, what tools did they have for knowing who to believe?
Eve knew the difference but obeyed her ego instead. You may well believe that but if she had an ego, was it the result of being made in GOD's image? Otherwise, before gaining the gift or knowledge how would she know? Is there some passage in the Genesis fable that says she followed her ego?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 259 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:18 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 262 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:27 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 264 of 301 (304295)
04-14-2006 5:32 PM
|
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:27 PM
|
|
Just more assertions.
God is good, God is love. United with God they needed no special tools. They would know His voice, just as Jesus' sheep know His voice. very cute, but what does that have to do with the issue being discussed? Before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, how would they know to obey GOD and not the serpent?
Of course she followed her ego. She was persuaded that she would have the same knowledge God has. That's ego. No, she followed the directions of the serpent. Why would she think it wrong to do so?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 262 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:27 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 268 of 301 (304302)
04-14-2006 5:54 PM
|
Reply to: Message 265 by Percy
04-14-2006 5:49 PM
|
|
How to know right from wrong?
But Percy, before eating from the Tree of Knowledge Eve and Adam had no tools for choosing one option over the other, no method of knowing which was the right choice. Now once they did eat from the Tree of Knowledge they did realize they had made the wrong decision. Until that moment though they simply didn't have the tools needed to know what was right or wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 265 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 5:49 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 273 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 8:39 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 269 of 301 (304303)
04-14-2006 5:59 PM
|
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:49 PM
|
|
knowing GOD's voice?
The answer to both your queries, which has already been given, is that they knew God's voice. The serpent's voice would not be God's and they would know this. What does that have to do with anything? Before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge how would they know to obey GOD's voice?
The serpent's voice would not be God's and they would know this. Therefore she would not follow the serpent's voice. The reason she did is given in scripture -- he persuaded her she would be like God. That is ego. Sorry but there's no connection there to ego that I can see. Again, what tools did Adam & Eve have to know not to listen to the serpent?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 266 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:49 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 271 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 7:56 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 272 of 301 (304315)
04-14-2006 8:00 PM
|
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
04-14-2006 7:56 PM
|
|
Re: knowing GOD's voice?
So far you have not shown any reason that knowing his voice would enable them to know right from wrong. Please explain that?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 271 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 7:56 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 277 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 10:48 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 275 of 301 (304321)
04-14-2006 8:52 PM
|
Reply to: Message 273 by Percy
04-14-2006 8:39 PM
|
|
Re: How to know right from wrong?
Faith seems certain it could only be ego. You seem certain it could only be lack of knowledge. In the midst of so much Biblical ambiguity, so much certainty seems unwarranted. That's often the story when examining folk lore. Here we are, looking at tales that were probably told about 4000 years ago. They were probably repeated around the campfire for over a thousand years, told, retold, embellished, revised before finally being put into writing. The first hurdle is to try to place oneself in the position, the point of view of the person from that era. What was the message they were trying to tell? Why did they create the legend? Perhaps even harder is determining what the relevance of the story is today. What can we learn from the story? Why was it important enough to be included? Why did the people compiling the Torah include two such dissimilar and mutually exclusive tales?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 273 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 8:39 PM | | Percy has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 281 of 301 (304344)
04-14-2006 10:59 PM
|
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
04-14-2006 10:48 PM
|
|
Re: knowing GOD's voice?
Oh for heaven's sake. God is good. God is truth. God cannot lie. Whatever God says is right. If you know His voice and obey Him you cannot go wrong. This ought to be obvious. Adam and Eve were in intimate communication with God before the Fall. They were spiritually intact. It was after the Fall that they lost the ability to discern His presence or His voice, even trying to hide from Him. They had been told not to eat of the fruit. Only wilful disobedience would have led them to that. They would certainly know the serpent's voice was not the voice of God. How could they know right from wrong before eating from the Tree of Knowledge? It was eating from the Tree of Knowledge that gave them the ability to know right from wrong. I looked through everything you posted and still see nothing related to that question.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 277 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 10:48 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 282 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 11:02 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 283 of 301 (304347)
04-14-2006 11:10 PM
|
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
04-14-2006 11:02 PM
|
|
Re: knowing GOD's voice?
The knowledge of good and evil is not equivalent to knowing right from wrong. That is your own gloss on the story. They knew no evil because they had perfection in Eden, and were in perfect harmony with God. You still haven't explained it. What was supposed to teach them right from wrong before eating from the fruit? Only after eating from the fruit did they realize what they had done was wrong. Before eating from the Fruit they had no way to know what was right behavior or wrong behavior. Tell me, did they know that they were naked before eating from the fruit?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 282 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 11:02 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 286 of 301 (304353)
04-14-2006 11:39 PM
|
Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
04-14-2006 11:24 PM
|
|
Re: What the commentators say
Yes, many people have seen it like that. Those are good examples of the mental gymnastics that are necessary in order to try to obscure the contradictions in the various Genesis myths. If the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil doesn't actually but just a test, there is no explanation for the change in their behavior before being confronted by GOD. In addition, that would make the Tree of Life just another test and remove the fear that GOD exhibited that they might eat from it. Sorry, but frankly those commentaries seem to be nothing more than mental gymnastics.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 284 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 11:24 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 287 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 11:43 PM | | jar has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 291 of 301 (304359)
04-14-2006 11:56 PM
|
Reply to: Message 274 by Heathen
04-14-2006 8:48 PM
|
|
But many Christians don't believe in the fall.
Creavolution writes: So we're nearling the end of this thread and no one has shown that God is not cruel. I have posed the same question over and over and nothing. I think purpleyouko summed it up when he/she said that it is faith speaking. to me, the actions of the God of the bible reflect a cruel God. 1)The fall, and the fact that humanity is paying for theactions of A&E is neither fair nor just. 2)the notion that an innocent newborn child would pay for the sins of its parents is neither fair nor just So, God has acted to bring about a situation which is neither fair nor just. it follows that God is neither fair nor just. That only holds true if they accept that there was a Fall and Original Sin. Many Christians don't think either is the case. So, would a Christian that agrees those two things would indicate a cruel God and that does not accept that there was a Fall or that the sins of some long dead parent are vested on the child show a GOD that is not cruel.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 274 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 8:48 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 293 of 301 (304361)
04-15-2006 12:08 AM
|
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
04-14-2006 11:43 PM
|
|
Re: What the commentators say
No problem Faith. Folk will read your defense of your position, they will read my defense of my position, and they will decide which makes more sense.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 287 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 11:43 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2