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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 172 (304909)
04-18-2006 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
04-18-2006 6:15 AM


Isn't the problem you point out really a consequence of having an extreme dichotomy between Heaven and Hell ?
And regardless of how salvation operates (short of proposing Universalism) isn't it always going to be the case that some people just scrape into Heaven and some only just miss it ?
In that line doesn't the RC doctrine of Purgatory provide a more satisfactory answer by addressing the real problem ?

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 Message 1 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 6:15 AM iano has replied

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 Message 4 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 8:09 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 172 (304924)
04-18-2006 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by iano
04-18-2006 8:09 AM


How does salvation by faith avoid the problem ? If you don't have quite enough faith, or if it is just a little too misdirected aren't you going to miss out on salvation ?

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 Message 4 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 8:09 AM iano has replied

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 Message 6 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 9:39 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 172 (304934)
04-18-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by iano
04-18-2006 9:39 AM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
If faith is "God-supplied" then the crucial issue is who God chooses to supply this faith to and how He decides to do so.
If there are any criteria at all then it is by those criteria that our salvation is decided. And it is, again, the case that some people will narrowly miss meeting those criteria while others will scrape through.
If there are no criteria at all then you have salvation by lottery, but even then you do not escape the problem. Suppose God decided to save one more person. There must be some person who would be saved - and thus they have narrowly missed salvation because God decided to save 1 fewer person - or is it impossible for God to save any more ? Equally there must be some method of generating the identities of who the lucky people are to be - by that token everybody who is saved only narrowly scrapes through and many more people narrowly miss.
Finally if salvation has nothing to do with human belief or human actions what is the point of Christian preaching or attemtps to convert ? Why did Christianity have to start with a few preachers in Judaea and spread through the world by human means ? If people who have heard the preaching are not at an advantage in reaching salvation then what good is it ?

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 Message 6 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 9:39 AM iano has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 21 of 172 (304973)
04-18-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
04-18-2006 11:20 AM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
Simply calling it a mystery doesn't change the issue. Sorry, but simply because you use the word "mystery" doesn't mean that we should exempt your view from critical examination. THAT is an intellectual insult.
Indeed since you could equally well defend the view you argue against with the same "argument", it appears that this entire thread is founded on a double standard.

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 Message 19 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 11:20 AM iano has replied

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 Message 29 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:08 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 41 of 172 (305023)
04-18-2006 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by iano
04-18-2006 1:08 PM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
quote:
You presume all aspects of Gods workings should be intellectually resolvable but haven't told me why this should be so.
The premise of this thread is all about intellectually examining behaviour attributed to God. You only cry foul when your beliefs about what God does are put to the same examination.
To make matters worse, my examination was merely of a specific claim you made. You claimed that your beliefs successfully avoided the problem of people scraping into Heaven or barely missing it and ending up in Hell- and it was my examination of that assertion that you objected to. So in fact the examination you complain of was one you implicitly invited and it was more limited than the examination in the OP.
quote:
The OP didn't include mention of examining the faith only viewpoint so I don't feel compelled to have to answer
The OP claimed that an opposing viewpoint should be rejected because on intellectual examination it appeared absurd. It is certainly leftimate to consider whether your preferred viewpoint solves the problem - because if it does not either your argument is invalid or it equally damns your own beliefs. Your response is to claim that intellectual examination is invalid - when applied to your beliefs.
quote:
Suffice to say, a person who knows God will have a different approach to the black box than one who doesn't. The latter can only retire with an offended intellect.
And thus the OP tells us that you do not know God.
s

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 43 of 172 (305028)
04-18-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by lfen
04-18-2006 4:17 PM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
I disagree. My objection is not that his argument is inherently invalid in the Faith fora (although it is certainly questionable just how far it can be reasonably applied). My objection is to the double standard in refusing to allow others the same get-out he uses.
So my point is that Iano's behaviour is, in your words, "contradictory and maybe even hypocritical".,

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