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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 31 of 172 (305002)
04-18-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by iano
04-18-2006 1:24 PM


Re: I don't think its ridiculous
iano writes:
the difference between the last in heaven and first in hell will be some relatively trival difference in works. A "fraction of a sin" as it were - if you take the amounts of people who will be measured
But is there not the same possibility for different levels of faith?
Even on this very site, there are wideley differing versions of christianity, differing levels of literalism.
If you are going to treat works as a gradient, it seems reasonable that faith could be treated similarly.
maybe christian A has stronger faith than christian B, who in turn has stronger faith than christian C... and so on until you reach a point where the faith held by a person becomes insufficient to guarantee a place in heaven.
The problem you have with Works applies to faith also.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:56 PM Heathen has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 32 of 172 (305003)
04-18-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by PurpleYouko
04-18-2006 12:58 PM


Re: Problems with the faith only approach
If I honestly believed that there was a God and that he behaved in this kind of fashion then I would actively side against him from choice, as I would much rather be tortured in Hell than be forced to remain in the company of such a hypocritical, foul being as this
I am encouraged by Pauls use of the qualification in Romans 9:22 where he poses this notion. "What if God..." He is making the point that it is not for us to question God. We do of course. But it is not our place.
The Bible tends to dispel notions about God that people are want to err towards. You have the "God full of wrath" god beloved of hellfire and brimstone merchants. You have the fluffy bearded, ultra-benevolent "God is Love" god: this one looks down on our actions and smiles at our little 'mistakes' wondering "what ever will they think of next - as if I didn't know". You also have the "God must be completely intellectually reconcilable before I'll believe in him" god. He is especially popular here at EvC.
It seems to me that the only way that a genuinely good God would act is to judge people by their deeds alone
Is this the "I know he's completely holy and can't abide sin God but if he judges us according to his own standards we'll all be shagged" god?
That was the whole point. God is God. He cannot change who he is. It was because we would be judged by his standards that he planned what he planned (will "the omnipotent God who can do absolutely anything" god please stand up at this point)
Whenever your inclined to be cross with him (or my puny representations of him) do remember what he did to his son. Will ya?
This message has been edited by iano, 18-Apr-2006 06:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by PurpleYouko, posted 04-18-2006 12:58 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by PurpleYouko, posted 04-18-2006 1:55 PM iano has replied
 Message 37 by lfen, posted 04-18-2006 2:08 PM iano has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 33 of 172 (305008)
04-18-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by iano
04-18-2006 1:36 PM


Re: Problems with the faith only approach
The Bible tends to dispel notions about God that people are want to err towards.
Since the bible is the very place that I got my notions of god from, I don't see this.
God is God. He cannot change who he is.
And I am who I am. I can't change that either. If God hasn't decided to make me a Christian then I guess he must have his reasons. It certainly isn't because I didn't give him the chance. I spent years doing just that. He obviously just doesn't like me for some arbitrary reason.
Ah well! I won't let that bother me. I will just keep on being nice to people anyway. If that doesn't get me to heaven, tough!
I'm sorry but your concept of God is absolutely and utterly incompatable with any kind of God that I have ever believed in. In fact your version of God appears to me to be much closer to the incarnation of evil.
As far as you OP question goes, I don't see any problem whatsoever with judging people by deeds alone. I could respect a God who would work that way. The other options just seem to me to be unreasonable, abhorant and utterly incompatable with the concept of a just and loving God.
You will obviously never be able to see it from my point of view just like I will never see it from yours.
If I'm right then I will quite likely see you in heaven but if you are right then I hope I don't because it isn't a place that I would ever want to be.
See you later
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:36 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 2:03 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 172 (305009)
04-18-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Heathen
04-18-2006 1:35 PM


Re: I don't think its ridiculous
In this Christians Christianity, God is the one who supplies the faith and belief. And there is a gradient. Some have greater faith and belief than others
However, there is no sense of level of faith being the deciding factor. The Bible only decribes 2 postions. In Adam/In Christ. And they are settled here not on the day of the judgement we will all face.
The great thing about this Christians Christianity is that one doesn't have to stew until judgment to find out their lot. One can know it now. Which kind of matches the characteristic one would expect of a loving father when you think of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Heathen, posted 04-18-2006 1:35 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by PurpleYouko, posted 04-18-2006 2:07 PM iano has replied
 Message 40 by Heathen, posted 04-18-2006 3:11 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 35 of 172 (305010)
04-18-2006 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by PurpleYouko
04-18-2006 1:55 PM


Problems with the 'my way' only approach
And I am who I am. I can't change that either. If God hasn't decided to make me a Christian then I guess he must have his reasons. It certainly isn't because I didn't give him the chance. I spent years doing just that. He obviously just doesn't like me for some arbitrary reason.
"Gave him a chance?". I may be wrong PY but it sounds a little like you were trying to meet God on your terms rather than his. He can't meet people on there terms for the terms will differ wildly.
It is a narrow gate but there is ample room for you to pass through it - on his terms. That is the single biggest issue holding people from him. They won't come on his terms and so they invent their own useless one. And there are as many of those as people in the world before they find his way through the gate.
A time may come. You might not realise it for what it is. If you ask on his terms then he will come and bring you through.
God bless

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by PurpleYouko, posted 04-18-2006 1:55 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PurpleYouko, posted 04-18-2006 2:24 PM iano has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 36 of 172 (305011)
04-18-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
04-18-2006 1:56 PM


One more quick question
The Bible only decribes 2 postions. In Adam/In Christ. And they are settled here not on the day of the judgement we will all face.
And how do you think one can change this position?
Is it even possible?
Particularly if you look at 1 cor 2:14 (as you keep pointing out in other threads)
If you are "Spiritually dead" then you are doomed. right? Even if it isn't your own fault because you were born that way
I could be (hypothetically of course. I don't think I am for one minute} the most perfect human being born since Jesus. I could spend my entire life doing nothing but good and helping others selflessly but God for some reason chooses to withhold his "Christianity" from me for some reason that I can't hope to figure out.
This means I'm going to hell? Right?
And you like this concept better than one in which we have to earn our place in heaven? I really don't understand where you are coming from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 7:35 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 37 of 172 (305012)
04-18-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by iano
04-18-2006 1:36 PM


Re: Problems with the faith only approach
Whenever your inclined to be cross with him (or my puny representations of him) do remember what he did to his son. Will ya?
Bear in mind that your puny representation of him has done and is doing it to a lot more than his son!
lfen

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 Message 32 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:36 PM iano has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 38 of 172 (305013)
04-18-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by iano
04-18-2006 2:03 PM


Re: Problems with the 'my way' only approach
"Gave him a chance?". I may be wrong PY but it sounds a little like you were trying to meet God on your terms rather than his. He can't meet people on there terms for the terms will differ wildly.
No you have it completely wrong. Can't say I blame you though based on our previous conversations.
For more years than I care to remember I talked to God about every little thing in my life. I never asked for anything. I was just content to leave the door unconditionally open with a welcome mat, so to speak. I never once so much as caught even the most fleeting sensation that there might actually be somebody there.
As the years went by I slowly but surely came to realize that I was talking to a being that only existed in my own (and everyone elses) imagination. That too soon faded as well just like my belief in Santa Claus had many years earlier.
If God is real then he has chosen to ignore me for his own reasons. That doesn't make me bitter or anything.
If he chooses to make himself known to me in ways that I can understand then I just hope that he isn't the way that you portray him because if he does turn out that way then he will get the finger and the door will be slammed forever, whatever the consequences to myself.
Fortunately I don't believe for one second that God could be that way so it isn't really an issue is it?

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 Message 35 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 2:03 PM iano has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 39 of 172 (305017)
04-18-2006 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
04-18-2006 12:36 PM


Re: STOP: STEP AWAY FROM THE VEHICLE
iano
My mistake. I assumed the question " How can this be?" was relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 12:36 PM iano has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 40 of 172 (305018)
04-18-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
04-18-2006 1:56 PM


Re: I don't think its ridiculous
iano writes:
The Bible only decribes 2 postions. In Adam/In Christ
You believe in salvation by faith right? so.. at what point am I defined as being in christ... wrt my faith?
Do I have to believe every word of the bible? or just the NT? or maybe just the ressurection?
Or do I simply have treat people as I would have them treat me?

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 Message 34 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:56 PM iano has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 41 of 172 (305023)
04-18-2006 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by iano
04-18-2006 1:08 PM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
quote:
You presume all aspects of Gods workings should be intellectually resolvable but haven't told me why this should be so.
The premise of this thread is all about intellectually examining behaviour attributed to God. You only cry foul when your beliefs about what God does are put to the same examination.
To make matters worse, my examination was merely of a specific claim you made. You claimed that your beliefs successfully avoided the problem of people scraping into Heaven or barely missing it and ending up in Hell- and it was my examination of that assertion that you objected to. So in fact the examination you complain of was one you implicitly invited and it was more limited than the examination in the OP.
quote:
The OP didn't include mention of examining the faith only viewpoint so I don't feel compelled to have to answer
The OP claimed that an opposing viewpoint should be rejected because on intellectual examination it appeared absurd. It is certainly leftimate to consider whether your preferred viewpoint solves the problem - because if it does not either your argument is invalid or it equally damns your own beliefs. Your response is to claim that intellectual examination is invalid - when applied to your beliefs.
quote:
Suffice to say, a person who knows God will have a different approach to the black box than one who doesn't. The latter can only retire with an offended intellect.
And thus the OP tells us that you do not know God.
s

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 1:08 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by lfen, posted 04-18-2006 4:17 PM PaulK has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 42 of 172 (305025)
04-18-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by PaulK
04-18-2006 3:42 PM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
Your response is to claim that intellectual examination is invalid - when applied to your beliefs.
I always thought that was the whole point of faith and why it was so insisted on by Christians, at least of the more conservative variety. Faith is used to silence or prevent examination of the dictates of the authorities. Don't question, don't think, have faith and believe what I tell you.
For Iano to act otherwise would be contradictory, maybe even hypocritical?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 04-18-2006 3:42 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 04-18-2006 4:29 PM lfen has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 43 of 172 (305028)
04-18-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by lfen
04-18-2006 4:17 PM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
I disagree. My objection is not that his argument is inherently invalid in the Faith fora (although it is certainly questionable just how far it can be reasonably applied). My objection is to the double standard in refusing to allow others the same get-out he uses.
So my point is that Iano's behaviour is, in your words, "contradictory and maybe even hypocritical".,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by lfen, posted 04-18-2006 4:17 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 44 of 172 (305033)
04-18-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
04-18-2006 6:15 AM


Matthew again!
From Matthew Chapter 25 come the following unequivocal instructions.
31 But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand,'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in.
36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink?
38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
40 "The King will answer them,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand,'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
44 "Then they will also answer, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?'
45 "Then he will answer them, saying,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.'
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
This seems to teach in direct opposition to the idea of salvation by faith alone, but teaches clearly that salvation will be determined by what you do, how you act, what deeds you do.
Given this passage which claims to be the direct teaching of Jesus, I find it ludicrous that a Christian can claim that faith alone brings salvation. Why would any Christian disregard the words of Jesus Christ? I find it much more logical for a Christian to consider that Jesus was telling the truth when He gave us these instructions and was telling us that our deeds matter very much.
If God gives us faith and we have no say in whether we have faith or not, then that means that each and every individual has their life's path predestined by God. Where's the free will in that? It means that if you are one of the special ones to be given faith, it's easy to be saved - you don't have to do a thing. I thought the road to salvation was a difficult one and many fell by the wayside? they'd hardly be falling by the wayside if they weren't on the journey in the first place.
Iano, your idea of salvation by faith alone makes a mockery of much of the Bible and most of the teachings of Jesus. Why bother giving Moses the commandments? What was the point of the Beatitudes? Or is this a case of not letting God get in the way of a good bit of comforting dogma? "I can do whatever I want to, I can hurt whoever I want to, I can sin as much as I like as long as I have faith that Jesus is the Son of God, was crucified, died and rose after three days in the tomb".
You said
One may say one tries to do so to the best of their ability but that appears to be leave open the possibility for any level of trying - surely if one fails then one has, per definition, tried as hard as one can at that moment yet failed.
Let me tell you a story. My son ran the nursery marathon when he was four - it was one lap of the track. He was up against five year olds. He's a fast runner, but only over short distances because his feet get very sore.
Half way round the track, the kiddie just in front of him fell over. My son desperately wanted to win, but he stopped, helped the kiddie up and off they went running again. He ran his little heart out and was limping by the end. He came last by a long way.
As a loving mother I yelled myself hoarse as he crossed the line and by that time the prizes were already being given, he took so long. He was very upset at coming last and crying. I ran to him, tears running down my face and squeezed him in a huge hug. He thought I was upset that he had failed to win the race so I explained that I was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO proud of him. He stopped and put himself at a disadvantage to help another, even though he was already hindered by his feet and even though he wanted to win so desperately.
Even when he was obviously last, his little legs kept going like the clappers, wanting to make his parents proud, wanting to win a prize. What sort of parents would we have been if we'd said to him "Nope, we're not proud because you failed to win"?
What sort of parent would hold their child back at the starting line so they couldn't even take part in the race, then set them on fire for not winning? Sheesh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 6:15 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 8:21 PM Trixie has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 45 of 172 (305051)
04-18-2006 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by PurpleYouko
04-18-2006 2:07 PM


Ask as many as you like - but hurry: there is only all the time in the world
FOR Purple Youko only: not necessarily for debate.
iano writes:
The Bible only describes 2 postions. In Adam/In Christ. And they are settled here - not on the day of the judgement we will all face.
PY writes:
And how do you think one can change this position? Is it even possible? Particularly if you look at 1 cor 2:14 (as you keep pointing out in other threads) If you are "Spiritually dead" then you are doomed. right? Even if it isn't your own fault because you were born that way
If I may leave the last issue of ' whose fault is the fall' aside for now - it would (and has) take another thread(s) and is not an area for easy acceptance. For the moment suffice to say that:
-the issue revolves around whether God could create truly free willed people whilst knowing what choice they would make. Or not. I hold that his knowing is not his pre-destining. But only God would be capable. Intellectual impossibility? You're not God (Hark the howls at that thought!!!)
- if you are aware of your own guilt, it feels like your guilt, looks like your guilt and smells like your guilt then it probably is your guilt. I don't mean guilt imposed on you by Religion - just your own self aware guilt
Change position: you don't do it. He does. Salvation is of God not man. I know this is counter intuitive and 'we' are exhorted to 'believe' and 'repent'. (in investigating this path one will inevitably come up against the paradox: I must chose but only his action will enable me to chose - sorry). That's what happened me and the closest Christian friends I have made. All very different stories: some slow, some like me, very fast. All the same m.o.
The bit at the very pinnacle of crossover between in Adam/in Christ is an 'act of faith' This is not done in a vacuum - you'll have been brought there. My own experience was a cry to God because there was noone else I could turn to. Humility, end of self, submission ("God if your out there - Help!" oft times). The words must come from your own heart and come willingly ('willingly' in the sense that though in difficulty you don't have to speak them) perhaps even beseechingly. But he will have used our actions and situations (note "our") and arranged them in some way which makes it possible for us to say them - heartfeltedly. Arm twisting? Not really. He fights like a mother tiger for us alright - but never unfairly, never in a way that forces us into his kingdom. Its has all the majesty of a symphony: oftentimes confusing along the way but in the end it all comes togehter and we go "aha! - a master at work!" And there is music for a symphony written for everybody who has ever lived. The question is whether it gets played or not. And I cannot but know that we can say no.
1 Cor 2:14 is simply stating a fact about the person in Adam. D'ya remember God telling Adam that "on the day....you will surely die" Well he didn't physically did he. But God doesn't tell lies either. It was in fact spiritual death that was being referred to then. And people who are dead cannot percieve things. We know that much. So a spiritually dead person will not perceive spiritual things. Thats the position: God is spirit and if you are dead spiritually then you will not perceive him. Intellectualising can be used as a tool in a person seeking and him finding you - but unless one becomes spiritually undead (hence the hackneyed, hated but ultimately spot on accurate phrase: born again) then one will never see (I was blind (dead) but now I see (alive))
You are not doomed if you are spiritually dead. Everyone was born that way. When Jesus came to seek and save the lost it was the spiritually dead he came for. You are only doomed if you die spiritually dead (for you will have been offered life) While you live he knock and knocks and knocks. Listen PY: if someone had blabbered this bull at me 5 years ago I'd have told them where to get off. You can't make it happen in one sense. But you can want it to happen. If you want it to then no matter how far away you percieve yourself to be it is only a fraction away from him. He can bridge any gap in no time
Do remember this prayer. I remember praying it at one time and will probably pray it again. But on your side of the fence it has an eternal resonance:
Lord I don't love you
I don't even want to love you
But I want to want to love you
Imagine proposing to your wife like that! Thats how far we can stray (nay further) and he will hear and respond - in his way. On his terms. In his time. Read the prodigal son parable again. Note that the father is ever-looking out for his son. And that which caused the son to look back was a connection he severed with his father. The father sits central to it all.
I could be (hypothetically of course. I don't think I am for one minute} the most perfect human being born since Jesus. I could spend my entire life doing nothing but good and helping others selflessly but God for some reason chooses to withhold his "Christianity" from me for some reason that I can't hope to figure out.
Its late. In answering quickly (if not snidely) let me say that he never sinned once. Now hypothetically (at best) that means you're steeped in sin by breakfast. Comparing yourself to him is comparing apples and rotten pears. And your far nicer than me... Luckily its not a matter of being nice.
As far as witholding salvation I must point to the bible: God wants that NONE should perish but that ALL would come to repentance. His wanting is not the same as his willing (which always comes to be). He sacrificed his son. He said to a thief on the cross "Truly Truly I tell you - today you will be with me in paradise. No acts, no good deeds, no time for getting ones act together. Saved through faith. And God given faith at that.
If your heart/gut/soul/being wants him then come he will.
This means I'm going to hell? Right?
Rely on works and who knows. A person may be under the impression that works need to be done whilst at the same time having at some point in their heart, seen their corruption and maybe even their lack of bargaining power and asked "Lord come". That they revert to works afterwards makes no odds. The deal once done is sealed. Nothing can separate. Nothing
It makes more sense to me than works. Infinitely more sense. It magnifies God and reduces me. Take a look out the window. Whether 6 day or 4 billion years it remains a wonder worthy of my repositioning myself w.r.t. him.
PY: an oft recurring expression from Godly people in the bible is, on exposure to God or even a whiff of him is to fall on their faces or burst out uncontrollably at his magnitude and power and grace toward us (comparitively) minisicule beings. That is our position. And you (as I did) wave your puny fist at him?
Non sense mon ami

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by PurpleYouko, posted 04-18-2006 2:07 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
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