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Author Topic:   How do we know about natural selection? (Igor and Lithodid-Man only)
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 43 (298150)
03-25-2006 10:00 PM


A Great Discussion between Igor and Lithodid-Man

How can we know about natural selection? All I understand it to be is nature itself deciding who is supreme and who is not. It all sounds like God but without a brain or any idea what it is doing. Everytime it seems like it is doing good work through its mechanism, evolution. We can not prove it because it is a force nobody can tell you a thing about. Nobody has ever seen natural selection. They have no idea WHAT is natural selection. Yes we may have a definition for it, but can somebody explain what it is? If we never see it than how do we know it exists. I know this sounds like a God argument but there are reasons to believe in Him. People have talked to God but nobody has talked to natural selection. I do realize this is badly written but this is the best way I could think of to write it and help people understand my confusion. Also this is a flawed understanding of natural selection but it is all that I understand that it is. Clairification is very neccessary.

This message has been edited by igor_the_hero, 03-25-2006 10:58 PM

This message has been edited by AdminJar, 03-26-2006 04:41 PM

{Edited topic title to add the "(Igor and Lithodid-Man only)" part. - Adminnemooseus}

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-30-2006 04:19 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 03-25-2006 10:14 PM igor_the_hero has responded
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 03-26-2006 5:32 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 43 (298172)
03-25-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
03-25-2006 10:14 PM


Re: Needs lots of work.
Does this help any? I am sorry. This is just a very confusing subject for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 03-25-2006 10:14 PM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 03-25-2006 11:06 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 43 (298178)
03-25-2006 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminJar
03-25-2006 11:06 PM


Re: Needs lots of work.
Absolutely. Nobody has ever explained it to me and when I ask they avoid the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 03-25-2006 11:06 PM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AdminJar, posted 03-25-2006 11:12 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 43 (298185)
03-25-2006 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by AdminJar
03-25-2006 11:12 PM


Re: Needs lots of work.
Done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AdminJar, posted 03-25-2006 11:12 PM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
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igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 43 (298440)
03-26-2006 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Lithodid-Man
03-26-2006 5:23 PM


Yes, but what IS it? You told me what it is referrd to, but what kind of force is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-26-2006 5:23 PM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-27-2006 2:50 AM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 43 (298782)
03-27-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Lithodid-Man
03-27-2006 2:50 AM


Re: Great question!
Ok, I understand you. I think. But how would you prove it? Also, when you are selecting, you have to have a selector, correct? I think I may be misinterpreting what you are saying about selecting not being selecting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-27-2006 2:50 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-29-2006 1:41 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 43 (299621)
03-30-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Lithodid-Man
03-29-2006 1:41 PM


Re: Great question!
But in your example about the deer, you couldn't really consider the environment. A lot of animals migrate so that they can survive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-29-2006 1:41 PM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-31-2006 5:07 AM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 43 (299975)
04-01-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Lithodid-Man
03-31-2006 5:07 AM


Re: Great question!
What if you get a perfect species suited to one particular spot? Like your deer in the valley. Now, let's say you have some sort of natural disaster that throws it all out of wack. Then your deer go extinct because the aren't adapted to the changes that take place in the disaster. Would that be considered natural selection?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-31-2006 5:07 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-01-2006 1:37 AM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 43 (300011)
04-01-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Lithodid-Man
04-01-2006 1:37 AM


Re: Great question!
Does natural selection ever have any unexplained changes? I mean like the chaemeleon. There are plenty of animals out there that are camoflauged without having to change colors. What could happen that would make it so that the chaemeleon would need that ability to change how it does?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-01-2006 1:37 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-03-2006 2:07 AM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 43 (300669)
04-03-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Lithodid-Man
04-03-2006 2:07 AM


Re: Great question!
Ok. It still confuses me some but I think I understand. Now can you tell me why there are tons of animals out there dying from rainforests being cut down (which you have said is a form of natural selection) and are not doing anything that is helping them to stay alive? If natural selection inspires a change than shouldn't there be species of the same animal popping up all over with new characteristics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-03-2006 2:07 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-05-2006 3:58 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 43 (301262)
04-05-2006 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Lithodid-Man
04-05-2006 3:58 PM


Re: Great question!
Is it possible to get natural selection and no change? I mean you have an animal that is poorly suited to its environment. Then a catastrophe changes its habitat to make it perfectly suited to a new one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-05-2006 3:58 PM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Brad McFall, posted 04-05-2006 4:44 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded
 Message 28 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-06-2006 8:48 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 43 (301775)
04-06-2006 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Lithodid-Man
04-06-2006 8:48 PM


Re: Great question!
What if you get natural selection and no mutation? If you have to wait billions of years for a helpful mutation, wouldn't natural selection cause the species to go extinct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-06-2006 8:48 PM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-07-2006 3:06 AM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 43 (302732)
04-09-2006 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Lithodid-Man
04-07-2006 3:06 AM


Re: Waiting for mutation
Sorry for the delayed response. This has been a very hectic few days. Okay, now if mutations have to coincide with the environment then why aren't all the species going extinct? Humans are changing the whole Earth except for the most inhospitable geographical zones (mountains, deserts,etc.) We pollute the air so all creatures lungs would have to be mutating. (Although with oil becoming harder to find that is a bad example.) We are cutting down trees, making some animals have to find homes in stuff we make. They will have to mutate to eat our litter as we make their own food hardr to find. What I am asking is why aren't animals going extinct when we are changing the environment so rapidly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-07-2006 3:06 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-14-2006 6:22 AM igor_the_hero has responded
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 04-14-2006 8:59 AM igor_the_hero has not yet responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 43 (304452)
04-15-2006 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Lithodid-Man
04-14-2006 6:22 AM


Re: Extinction
Quote:Your question is complex and I do not have all of the answers.

Okay, this was taken a bit out of context. If we do not have all the answer why this mostly taught as a proven fact? I do not rememeber who it was but somebody on here said, "Evolution is proven except for the lack of proof that we just have to find." In science the last time I checked, when you have no proof the thing is unproven. Now, where is all the proof for natural selection. I remember the example you used about the deer and dandelions. What I mean really is where is the proof?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-14-2006 6:22 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-15-2006 7:24 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 43 (305057)
04-18-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Lithodid-Man
04-15-2006 7:24 PM


Re: Evolution is a fact
But when you consider theories, what about laws? The Laws of Thermodynamics for example. Those aren't theories, they have been successfully proven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-15-2006 7:24 PM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 04-18-2006 8:55 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded
 Message 38 by Lithodid-Man, posted 04-21-2006 4:23 AM igor_the_hero has responded

  
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