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Author Topic:   Can Evolution explain this? (Re: The biological evolution of religious belief)
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 91 (305166)
04-19-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by anglagard
04-19-2006 1:17 AM


Re: About to explode
quote:
Cats leave food for their "masters" (hard to believe any cat thinks it has a master, in the way I understand it from the many I have owned). Maybe it is for all three reasons presented. As a gift, as a learning opportunity, and for random fun. Maybe, depending on the cat, it could be for all reasons at the same time. Who says the cats have to have only one reason for their behavior?
Actually, cats leave food for their kittens. By bringing us food, they are taking care of us.
(My cats just read what you said about "masters" and they are now over in the corner, nudging each other in the ribs and chuckling)

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 62 of 91 (306335)
04-24-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by anglagard
04-19-2006 1:17 AM


Re: About to explode
Cats leave food for their "masters" (hard to believe any cat thinks it has a master, in the way I understand it from the many I have owned). Maybe it is for all three reasons presented. As a gift, as a learning opportunity, and for random fun. Maybe, depending on the cat, it could be for all reasons at the same time. Who says the cats have to have only one reason for their behavior?
Cats are not alone. Ducks are very special. They pair with each other. After this, they never depart till they die. The mother duck does not eat till all the babies have eaten. If no food is left, then the mother duck stays hungry. These are known as animal instincts. Maternal and paternal instincts. This is not the same as consciousness. What you are referring to is self awareness.
This is not the same as the quest for God inside the human soul.
Any mutation is theoretically possible, however, any mutation that requires an energy expenditure better be able to justify itself in the struggle for survival.
Can you explain why did the bird flu virus mutate? It is still mutating. Was it because of struggle for survival?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by anglagard, posted 04-19-2006 1:17 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 04-28-2006 11:54 PM inkorrekt has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 63 of 91 (307577)
04-28-2006 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by inkorrekt
04-24-2006 7:44 PM


Re: About to explode
Can you explain why did the bird flu virus mutate? It is still mutating. Was it because of struggle for survival?
Yes, virusus mutate because if they did not, they would cease to exist once the last host died or developed the appropriate immune response to destroy such a virus.
Under such conditions as most virusus exist, existance itself demands mutation. Smallpox failed to mutate rapidly enough to outrun the vaccine, that's why it no longer exists in the wild. Flu mutates rapidly, that's why it is still here...
...providing yet more evidence for the ToE. In fact, providing currently observable evolution in a human timescale.
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-28-2006 09:47 PM
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-29-2006 12:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by inkorrekt, posted 04-24-2006 7:44 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by inkorrekt, posted 04-29-2006 8:49 PM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 64 of 91 (307618)
04-28-2006 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by inkorrekt
04-24-2006 7:44 PM


Re: About to explode
This is not the same as consciousness. What you are referring to is self awareness.
This is not the same as the quest for God inside the human soul.
How do you know that other mammals don't have conciousness or believe in God? Do you have evidence?
After all, a simple dissection shows that the brains of mammals are wrinkled, crenulated if you prefer, just like humans. Check out a dolphin brain:
http://soma.npa.uiuc.edu/courses/bio303/comp_brain_size.JPG
Or a cat brain:
http://brainmuseum.org/...ns/carnivora/cat/brain/Cat6clr.jpg
The above is an example of evidence, as opposed to pronouncement.
Perhaps the reason mammals are not commonly associated with religious belief is that they do not use such belief to interfere with the natural right of other dolphins to catch fish or for other cats to catch mice.
It may be pompousness, rather than spirituality, that is the most defining human trait.
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-28-2006 11:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by inkorrekt, posted 04-24-2006 7:44 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by inkorrekt, posted 04-30-2006 4:55 PM anglagard has replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 65 of 91 (307811)
04-29-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by anglagard
04-28-2006 9:33 PM


Re: About to explode
Very interesting explanation. So, in this situation, Survival of the fittest is the virus and not the host.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by anglagard, posted 04-28-2006 9:33 PM anglagard has replied

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 66 of 91 (307814)
04-29-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by inkorrekt
04-29-2006 8:49 PM


Re: About to explode
Survival of the fittest is the virus and not the host.
As best I can tell, the implication of the above is that when a virus causes a human death it implies that the virus is better fitted to survive than the host. This case is at an individual and not a species level. At the individual level, the better fitted human for the purpose of surviving bird flu virus would be the one that lived long enough to pass on their genes. The better fitted virus would be the one that survives to continue infecting hosts.
Survival of the fittest in the case of a single individual means the fittest within a species, not the fittest of all species put together. Survival of the fittest at the species level would then be one species versus another rather than one individual versus one case of infection. The levels of individual and species appear mixed and therefore meaningless in the previous post, if I understood the post properly.
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-29-2006 09:32 PM

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 67 of 91 (307890)
04-30-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by SalineSage05
11-17-2004 5:21 PM


not as long as "religion" is a mental DISorder
quote:
Atheism And Other Addresses by Joseph Lewis The Freethouht Press Association NY, NY 1941
There is no way that evolution theory of science can explain religious belief as long as there are functionaires of the US governement, in particular, that held or hold by default, the view and statute that religion is a mental mixeduporder.
The federal government finally has decided that I am "no longer" disabled. Of course, I never was mentally disordered except as it religion and evolution were being conflated NOT by me. So while the decision is the correct one the reason is wrong as on this decision there is no way to start to work out the means that evolution might or might not explain the biological basis of religion.
To continue one would need to explain the puncture as not being a hole at all that Stove wrote in "Darwinian Fairytales"p 212
quote:
But even if we regard this as an acceptable patch for the filial altruism puncture, the same problem breaks out again elsewhere, and in an even more hideous form. Namely, in the form mentioned a momement ago: that sperm and eggs ought to exhibit "filial" altruism towards the organisms that make them, and in fact twice as much altruism as they receive from those organisms. As far as I know, no attempt had ever been made to patch this puncture. Perhaps it was considered that even the best patch be bound to draw attention to it.
To begin to approach the patch that covers nothing one would have to show that in any instance the trend in a taxanomic hierarchy that Darwin illustrated but did not include in his "origin" (but later came out in 1975)(Gould brings this issue out in his Structure book) can NEVER be due to cellular automata. As long as the issue is about confusing better health with time rather than space (the federal government simply had a 7 year arbitary review of ability BUT IT ALSO PERMITS retention of medicare during appeal but not necessarily food) there will be no time, not because scientists are preventing the research but because the states have intruded on the rights and powers of people with civil servants filiing the gap that is a fake hole over a twisted fabric that mimics a puncture but is not topological in any sense of the correct word.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 68 of 91 (307988)
04-30-2006 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by anglagard
04-28-2006 11:54 PM


Re: About to explode
After all, a simple dissection shows that the brains of mammals are wrinkled, crenulated if you prefer, just like humans.
No doubt about this at all.I have dissected hundreds of rat brain and even a monkey brain. This is one of the similarities between human brain and even a rat brain. Such convoluted structures do not have anything to do with the higher functions of the brain.Animals can be trained. This is learned behaviour. An animal does not have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong; Good and evil. Animals are driven by instincts whereas humans can examine facts and make conscious choices. Rationality and reasoning are unique to human beings.
This message has been edited by inkorrekt, 04-30-2006 04:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 04-28-2006 11:54 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2006 9:28 PM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 70 by nator, posted 04-30-2006 9:37 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 69 of 91 (308093)
04-30-2006 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by inkorrekt
04-30-2006 4:55 PM


Re: About to explode
An animal does not have the ability to distinguish between right and wrong; Good and evil. Animals are driven by instincts whereas humans can examine facts and make conscious choices. Rationality and reasoning are unique to human beings.
In post 64 I asked for evidence, not pronouncement. Please provide evidence.
Actually, this could be a topic in itself. My basic research indicates these pronouncements are debatable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by inkorrekt, posted 04-30-2006 4:55 PM inkorrekt has replied

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 70 of 91 (308094)
04-30-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by inkorrekt
04-30-2006 4:55 PM


Re: About to explode
quote:
Such convoluted structures do not have anything to do with the higher functions of the brain.
No, that's not true.
Humans have a greater brain surface to volume ratio than any other mammal.
That's because our cortex, which regulates all of our higher functions, takes up a much greater proportion of the human brain compared to other mammals.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 71 of 91 (308345)
05-01-2006 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SalineSage05
11-17-2004 5:21 PM


maybe someone has already answered what I'm going to. I don't feel like reading all the posts right now. However. . .
We have a need to explain things. For whatever reason, we want to know why we exist, what our purpose in life is, and why does the sun always come up in the morning and go to bed at night?
What does evolution have to say on this matter? nothing. Those previous questions tend to philosophical (and more specifically, metaphysical).
When we don't have science to answer our questions (and science uses natural explanations) we turn to the supernatural. Back when we thought the sun came up and went down, it was explained that a chariot pulled the sun across the sky and when the charioteer went to bed the sun did. Nothing rational in that. Non-rational, yes.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 72 of 91 (308620)
05-02-2006 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by anglagard
04-30-2006 9:28 PM


Re: About to explode
My basic research indicates these pronouncements are debatable
This is the first time, I am hearing something of this nature. I am really curious. I guess it was few years ago that some neurologist wrote an article in Times. He reduced man's relationship with God to a basic stimulus-reaponse phenomenon and he even ascribes this as a God center in brain. In other words, he wrote that the ecstatic God experience of some people can be simulated by electrical stimulation of the God center in brain. Well, there must be solid controls and very well designed Experiments. I need to see the results.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2006 9:28 PM anglagard has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 73 of 91 (334338)
07-22-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by kuresu
05-01-2006 11:20 PM


Why are we here?
Answer to this is we were the products of natural selection and random mutations. That means, we just happened. there is no purpose for our existence.We live and when our time is up, we die. that is all.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 74 of 91 (334407)
07-22-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by anglagard
04-29-2006 9:07 PM


Re: About to explode
actually, a virus that does not kill the host is more successful than one that kills it.

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 75 of 91 (334408)
07-22-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by inkorrekt
07-22-2006 6:22 PM


Re: Why are we here?
Answer to this is we were the products of natural selection and random mutations. That means, we just happened. there is no purpose for our existence.We live and when our time is up, we die. that is all.
And??

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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