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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 46 of 172 (305053)
04-18-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Trixie
04-18-2006 4:47 PM


Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
This seems to teach in direct opposition to the idea of salvation by faith alone, but teaches clearly that salvation will be determined by what you do, how you act, what deeds you do.
...trixies saving grace is that she says "seems"
We all have our proof passages but to me it seems that supporting ones case (oh dear am I talking faith alone again?) on a single passage in scripture is fraught with difficulty, Not least: if one passage contains a proof (or even very strong suggestion) then what point the rest?
My oft asked but never answered question regarding this particular passage is that it can be interpreted as a 'causal' to salvation (they did this therefore they are saved) VERSUS 'consequence' of having being saved (as a result of being saved they did this...) IOW God "recognises & declares & justifies publically" those who are destined for heaven as a result of his action in those whom he has saved. It has resulted in "good works".
"Faith without works is dead"...another favorite of the 'works movement' can be seen consequentially also. The faith alone view: if a person isn't doing good works (to be defined by God not man) then they have not saving faith. Works consequential not causal to having being saved.
Cause/consequence - which is it from these passages and why?
If God gives us faith and we have no say in whether we have faith or not, then that means that each and every individual has their life's path predestined by God. Where's the free will in that?
I arrived at this point and was settled - until I read about pre-destination: God electing, pre-choosing, God having mercy upon whom he will have mercy. I ended (recently) at an intellectually satisfying paradox (if that in itself is not a paradox...)
Where did you arrive and how do you cohere these contradictory ideas?
Why bother giving Moses the commandments?
"the law is a schoolteacher". To teach us what? "to lead us to Christ"
"Without the law there is no knowledge of sin"
Trixie, this is fairly unambiguous stuff. The purpose of the law was primarily to make us aware that we cannot adhere to it - not an instruction to spiritually unreceptive (read: dead) people. It seems simple to me: if there was no law, how would we know we are sinning?
No 'keep off the grass' sign? How would we know stepping on the grass caused it to whither and die.
No 30mph sign? How would we know that going faster endangered people (the harming of which there is just punishment - even in this life)
Wet Paint? We could ruin our clothes were it not for this simple warning. Now if the clothes weren't ours in the first place then you see transformation into law. Are you your own?
What sort of parent would hold their child
Heartrending. You will your own strength into his legs but you can't can you? Your heart pours out in sheer love and it reaches such a crescendo that you would, in areas of your being, be willing to die rather than have your beloved go through a moments more pain or shame. Thats love. Self-sacrificial love. The best love of all loves.
The Father hangs his son on a cross. His man-son. Pain, humiliation, torture, betrayal. His man-mother sits at the base of that cross and weeps as you did. The Father spits on his God-son. He rejects and despises him, holds him abhorrent. He does to his son what you could not to yours. The Father does this, and the Son accepts this: not because of any weakness in his own legs: for the son was the most perfect man/God there ever was. No... This loving Father puts the weakness of all the other legs in the race into the perfectly healthy and able legs of his own son. Then curses and rail at his sons coming last. And perfectly, the Son trusts and agrees with his Father. As he always did
All this? In order that the Fathers enemies: people who despise him and all he represents, can come into the same sort of loving that you pour out on your son. That they can be enabled to win the race and receive the greatest prize of all...
p.s. and at the end of all that he re-transfers partial weakness onto the legs of the other racers and asks them to run again??
I don't think so. If nothing else, it ruins a beautiful and perfectly heartrending story.
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Apr-2006 01:58 AM
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Apr-2006 02:00 AM
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Apr-2006 02:18 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Trixie, posted 04-18-2006 4:47 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 3:22 AM iano has replied
 Message 63 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-19-2006 3:33 PM iano has not replied
 Message 68 by Trixie, posted 04-19-2006 4:47 PM iano has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 47 of 172 (305096)
04-18-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
04-18-2006 4:29 PM


Re: Intellectual mystery not intellectual insult
Oh, no problem. I was agreeing with you only in a smartass bassackwards way to dramatize Iano's obtuseness in applying his double standard. I probably should have used a smiley or winkie or something.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 48 of 172 (305137)
04-19-2006 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by iano
04-18-2006 8:21 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
The Father hangs his son on a cross. His man-son. Pain, humiliation, torture, betrayal. His man-mother sits at the base of that cross and weeps as you did.
For an eternal being who knew that his 'death' was only temporary, and that held be running about Israel again three days later, Jesus' sacrifice is intensely boring.
A God cannot die, Jesus suffered for a paltry 3 hours on a cross, it is hardly inspiring.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 8:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 5:13 AM Brian has replied
 Message 51 by jar, posted 04-19-2006 10:03 AM Brian has replied
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 04-19-2006 10:45 AM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 49 of 172 (305143)
04-19-2006 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
04-19-2006 3:22 AM


Mock away Brian. But before you go...
Much as it pains me to say so, it was but a speck of the total. Crucifixion was the most horrendous, legal punishment available at that time. Arguably the most barbaric ever (a prophecy: watch the dissent).
quote:
CTS is a painful repetitive motion disorder and is much in the same bracket as RSI that secretaries taxi drivers and typists suffer from.
It directly affects the median nerve. This nerve travels from your forearm into your hand through a tunnel in the wrist. The tunnel is made up of 8 carpial bones of the wrist on 3 sides and the strong transverse carpal ligament in situated on the top. This tunnel is also home to the flexor tendons that move the fingers. A sheath called Synovium covers each flexor tendon. With repetitive flexing and extension of the wrist the sheaths can become inflamed and thick and creates excessive pressure on the tunnel. As the pressure continues to build it has no where to be dispersed and then causes pressure on the median nerve which produces the symptoms of CTS
Now imagine someone hammering a nail through your wrist and through the median nerve. And then suspending you from it. Imagine designing a forearm knowing the pain that such violence would one day inflict on you.
Physically, temporally, Jesus could pay no more. Not only did he suffer the cross, but he suffered as a man who had been betrayed by one he called a friend. He was the subject of a patently unjust trial. Now imagine the torment caused by that evil act against you. Imagine too, your own mother looking up at you and imagine the pain that the torture in her face would add to your suffering. Imagine doing it without protest. Willingly even. Imagine knowing about it beforehand and the terror of it causing you to sweat drops of blood and beg for your life. Imagine not running away. Imagine Brian - for that is all you would be able to do. Some man this man Jesus.
Then there is the eternal God Jesus. One who enjoyed such perfect unity of relationship with his Father and his spirit that although 3 persons they are inseparable. Eternally inseparable. Even as a man subject to temptation just as we are, his love was such as to evoke nothing but perfect obedience to his father. Then something happens to this eternal perfect relationship. All the vileness of all mankind is assembled and laid on this God. Not a pretty parcel when you think of it. Then a perfectly holy father, holy meaning "in whom there is no darkness" (darkness should not to be confused with justness) who can do anything except act contrary to his nature pours out the wrath which sin deserves, on him who is in possession of it. He applies the just punishment for it all. Exacted in fullest measure without fear or favour. All in an eternal moment.
"My God My God why have you foresaken me?"
A God cannot die
Oh yes he can. God is spirit and you can't kill a spirit in the temporal sense of the word - they are created eternally and will last for eternity. However, one can die spiritually. Spiritual death ("on the day you eat of this apple") only means to be separate from a perfect relationship with God. Sin causes this separation. We were born in it and are born thus, spiritually dead, separated from God. Either we accept Jesus spiritual death on our behalf or die clutching our sin to ourselves. If the latter, then we too will suffer an eternal moments wrath poured out in fullest measure.
How long does a moments punishment last when you exist in eternity Brian. You don't know? Then perhaps it would be wiser to hold on with the dismissal bit until you have a little more evidence. Wiser still, avoid finding that evidence and choose the intellectual insult of not being able to know something about Gods ways.
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Apr-2006 10:22 AM
This message has been edited by iano, 19-Apr-2006 10:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 3:22 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by lfen, posted 04-19-2006 11:20 AM iano has not replied
 Message 55 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 2:08 PM iano has replied
 Message 65 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-19-2006 3:51 PM iano has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 50 of 172 (305202)
04-19-2006 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by iano
04-18-2006 7:35 PM


Re: Ask as many as you like - but hurry: there is only all the time in the world
-the issue revolves around whether God could create truly free willed people whilst knowing what choice they would make. Or not. I hold that his knowing is not his pre-destining. But only God would be capable. Intellectual impossibility? You're not God (Hark the howls at that thought!!!)
This is indeed a major issue.
What you hold seems to be one of those intelectual paradoxes. If God knows what choices we will make and yet it isn't predestination then you are putting limits on God. Maybe he set it all up with a giant cosmically scaled randomizer? But then what kind of randomizer could he make which he didn't know the outcome of? I just can't see logical a way out of this paradox.
I've said this loads of times before but I'll say it one more time. Given an ALL Powerfull and All Knowing God, then the following.
It actually doesn't matter {to us} if we have no control over our ultimate destiny since it appears to us that we do have choices. It's just that God already knows each and every choice we will ever make. he already knows which of us will be saved and which won't. He has always known.
In actual fact, an All Everything God is actually a paradox in itself.
If He knows His own future then he cannot change it and is therefore NOT All powerful.
If He is able to change the future then he is NOT all knowing.
But that is a subject for another thread.
Your (faith alone, God's decision who to save, scenario), along with an All everything God implies that whatever I do and whatever choices I make are going to have absolutely no effect on my ultimate destination. As trixie said, "Where is the free will in that?"
I could maybe accept a combination approach where your deeds have an effect on god's decision to save you. That doesn't appear to be the case though. We so often hear of hardened criminals suddenly becoming "saved"
If your heart/gut/soul/being wants him then come he will.
My heart is nothing but a pump. It can't want anything.
My gut processes food and removes its goodness. Otherwise it's just full of S*** so why should i trust anything that it wants.
My "soul" if it exists as a seperate entity from my body (which I seriously doubt) and my "being" (I take this as life force or whatever) both wanted him for many many years. He didn't come. I got bored with waiting and moved on.
PY: an oft recurring expression from Godly people in the bible is, on exposure to God or even a whiff of him is to fall on their faces or burst out uncontrollably at his magnitude and power and grace toward us (comparitively) minisicule beings.
Yet in every case of this happening there were no other witnesses to the event. The "Godly" people always seemed to be alone at the time so all we ever have in the bible is second hand information which as we all know, gets exagerated in the re-telling. That's Human nature.
That is our position. And you (as I did) wave your puny fist at him?
No actually, I only wave my (puny) fist at your representation of him. There are plenty of other ways to depict God. You are simply forcing him into a pidgeon hole and assigning values to him which I would associate much more closely with the guy downstairs. Your God is evil to me. Utterly not deserving of my worship. The more I speak with you, the more certain I become that you have been seduced by the dark side without ever realizing it.
I see no love in your God. I see cruel punishments dealt out in equal measures to the inocent and desrving both.
I see no justice in your God. I see random acts of horror committed to whomever he decides based on nothing but a whim.
I can do without that kind of salvation thanks.
You (and others) talk of God's morals. If I were to use Your God's moral code to live by, I would be Ghengis Khan or Hitler.
If people are judged by their deeds only then there is a fair system in place. I think there is a much greater divide than your 0.1 seconds of lusting after a member of the opposite sex. What about things like honesty, integrity, general benevolence? It's much harder to sit on the fence about such things.
For example, if you meet someone who needs your help in some way and you are capable of giving it. You can either do so or not. It's black and white. If you sit around for 3 weeks and debate whether to help or not then by default you haven't helped.
Deeds (and intentions) alone make perfect sense.
God arbitrarily choosing who to save or not based on criteria that we are unable to know or fathom, takes away any input that we have in the decision. Period. It utterly negates that "free-will" stuff that you claim God gave us. What's the point in us having the freedom to choose when our choices have absolutely no effect on the outcome? The only one with a real choice is God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 7:35 PM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 172 (305207)
04-19-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
04-19-2006 3:22 AM


The Crucifixion was not the issue
If Jesus had been an eternal being at the time, or God at the time, what you say would be completely correct.
But suppose he was not an eternal being at the time. Suppose he was not GOD at the time but simply human. He might believe that he will be raised from the dead, might believe it very strongly, but still, as a human, the pain would still be real and there would still be doubts.
Where I do agree with you is that the fact of Crucifixion itself is not very inspiring and those who concentrate on that aspect miss the message of Christianity. There were at least two others who suffered the same way that very day, that very location, that very moment. It's likely that hundreds or thousands of others were crucified that same day across the Roman Empire.
The message of Christianity is Jesus life. GOD became man, and as man, walked among us, laughed, cried, ate, slept, danced, drank, shared and taught. He lived with us, he died, and he was raised from the dead by GOD and forty days later he ascended into heaven.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 3:22 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 2:09 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 172 (305220)
04-19-2006 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
04-19-2006 3:22 AM


another perspective
Brian writes:
Jesus suffered for a paltry 3 hours on a cross, it is hardly inspiring.
I dunno, Brian...if we as humans have a bad tootheache or a kidney stone, or an attack of gout...even though we know its not fatal, the pain is unbearable for even 1 hour!
I guess my point is this: In your scenario, what hoop would you have God jump through before you were impressed?
It seems to me that you have some arbitrary standard for God to fullfill before you would acnowledge such a God....
I suppose that we could ask no more of God than we ask of ourselves...that He do His best!
It seems weird to act as the arbitrator, though! As if I have the credentials!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 3:22 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 53 of 172 (305227)
04-19-2006 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
04-19-2006 5:13 AM


Re: Mock away Brian. But before you go...
Wiser still, avoid finding that evidence and choose the intellectual insult of not being able to know something about Gods ways.
Are you God? What should we know about your ways that we don't already?
It's your assertions that are being questioned.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 172 (305229)
04-19-2006 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
04-18-2006 12:33 PM


Re: I don't think its ridiculous
iano writes:
BTW CS: any brief mechanism as to such a salvation? I thought RC meant guaranteed purgatory for RC's then heaven unless a mortaller had been committed? The rest are doomed?
I don't think that's accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iano, posted 04-18-2006 12:33 PM iano has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 55 of 172 (305253)
04-19-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by iano
04-19-2006 5:13 AM


Making things up as you go along...
Now imagine someone hammering a nail through your wrist and through the median nerve.
What does this have to do with Jesus?
Jesus apparently had nails driven through His hands:
John 20: 24-16
Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
So, a pretty useless piece of research Ian, maybe you should have read the Bible first. Unless the author of John got it wrong of course.
And then suspending you from it.
You weren’t suspended from it, the nail through your feet enabled you to take the strain on your legs, that’s why the soldiers were going to break the crucified prisoners legs, this would cause the weight of the upper body to push down on the chest and suffocate the victim. Sometimes the victim would have a little wooden plinth to rest their feet on, but eventually they got tired and suffocated, took an average of three days, makes Jesus’ 3 hours a bit wimpy to me.
Imagine designing a forearm knowing the pain that such violence would one day inflict on you.
Don’t say much for the ID brigade. I bet Jesus was glad He got nailed through the hands.
Physically, temporally, Jesus could pay no more. Not only did he suffer the cross, but he suffered as a man who had been betrayed by one he called a friend.
He knew who was going to betray Him even before Judas was born, so I don’t think He would have been that attached to the guy.
He was the subject of a patently unjust trial.
We don’t know anything about His trial, the one recorded in the Gospels was historically impossible and polluted with propaganda such as the Barabbas fantasy.
Now imagine the torment caused by that evil act against you.
Millions of people have faced similar ordeals in many countries around the world, difference is, Jesus was laughing up His sleeve because He knew it was only a temporary situation.
Imagine too, your own mother looking up at you and imagine the pain that the torture in her face would add to your suffering.
Imagine a young child’s mother being taken into hospital one night and that child being told she was dead and he would never be seeing her again, no final kiss or cuddle, no chance to say cheerio. Jesus saw His mother again, boring.
Imagine doing it without protest.
He didn’t do it without protest.
Willingly even. Imagine knowing about it beforehand and the terror of it causing you to sweat drops of blood and beg for your life.
This is all pointless ot an eternal being, Jesus declared that He would be back in three days, he knew about it, even the Gospels say that. It was no big deal at all, in fact, given the circumstances, how can anyone be impressed?
Imagine not running away. Imagine Brian - for that is all you would be able to do.
That’s all anyone can do.
Some man this man Jesus.
Yeah, to con so many people took real guts.
Then there is the eternal God Jesus.
ooh, another one, how many characters were in there?
One who enjoyed such perfect unity of relationship with his Father and his spirit that although 3 persons they are inseparable. Eternally inseparable.
So inseparable that the Father could keep secrets from the Son!
"My God My God why have you foresaken me?"
Except this was not what Jesus said.
Oh yes he can.
You have just changed the definition of ”god’ , LOL, do you enjoy making things up?
God is spirit and you can't kill a spirit in the temporal sense of the word - they are created eternally and will last for eternity.
“They”, what are you on about, there is only one God in
Christianity, and that God is eternal and cannot die even for a second, if He could die for a second then He isn’t immortal, you are the one who says he cannot do anything contrary to His nature, yet you are happy to make things up about Him to suit your own purposes?
However, one can die spiritually.
We are talking about God here, an eternal being, we aren’t talking about our spirit.
Spiritual death ("on the day you eat of this apple") only means to be separate from a perfect relationship with God. Sin causes this separation. We were born in it and are born thus, spiritually dead, separated from God.
This has nothing to do with the definition of ”God’. God is eternal and cannot die, if your God can die then He isn’t a God. Look, the Bible is clear that Jesus died on the cross, a simple straightforward claim.
Either we accept Jesus spiritual death on our behalf or die clutching our sin to ourselves. If the latter, then we too will suffer an eternal moments wrath poured out in fullest measure.
Well its got to be better than Eastenders.
How long does a moments punishment last when you exist in eternity Brian.
Very briefly I’d assume. Three hours on a cross compared having always existing is barely worth mentioning.
You don't know?
Yeah I know, it would be very brief, negligible.
Then perhaps it would be wiser to hold on with the dismissal bit until you have a little more evidence.
I have all the evidence I need to come to a sound conclusion. Jesus was no messiah, it is as obvious as the nose on my face. He fulfilled no messianic prophecies, He has no bloodline to David, and Israel was more suppressed than ever when Jesus ”died’.
Wiser still, avoid finding that evidence and choose the intellectual insult of not being able to know something about Gods ways.
I know everything about God’s ways, after all, we humans invented Him, and it isn’t difficult to see what a poor job the evangelists have made of inventing Jesus life story.
Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 5:13 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 3:01 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 56 of 172 (305254)
04-19-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
04-19-2006 10:03 AM


Re: The Crucifixion was not the issue
Its all nice and fluffy Jar, but nothing like the Bible version.
Brian.

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 Message 51 by jar, posted 04-19-2006 10:03 AM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 57 of 172 (305255)
04-19-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
04-19-2006 10:45 AM


Re: another perspective
In your scenario, what hoop would you have God jump through before you were impressed?
Let me think.
What could God do to be forgiven for all the sins He has committed against mankind. Well, I can only think of one that would make up for God's atrocities over the centuries, but it beyond His power to do it.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 04-19-2006 10:45 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by robinrohan, posted 04-19-2006 2:39 PM Brian has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 172 (305266)
04-19-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Brian
04-19-2006 2:11 PM


Re: another perspective
What could God do to be forgiven for all the sins He has committed against mankind. Well, I can only think of one that would make up for God's atrocities over the centuries, but it beyond His power to do it.
There's a logical problem with proclaiming God immoral if we believe that morality is subjective. That which is subjective is no good as evidence of anything.

"The whole of life goes like this. We seek repose by battling against difficulties, and once they are overcome, repose becomes unbearable because of the boredom it engenders."--Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 2:11 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by lfen, posted 04-19-2006 2:50 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 64 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 3:40 PM robinrohan has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 59 of 172 (305270)
04-19-2006 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by robinrohan
04-19-2006 2:39 PM


Re: another perspective
That which is subjective is no good as evidence of anything.
Your objective evidence to support this assertion is?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by robinrohan, posted 04-19-2006 2:39 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 172 (305275)
04-19-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Brian
04-19-2006 2:08 PM


Exhibit A: bible is accurate used to refute a point
brian writes:
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
Exhibit B: Bible is inaccurate used to refute a point
brian writes:
We don’t know anything about His trial, the one recorded in the Gospels was historically impossible and polluted with propaganda such as the Barabbas fantasy.
Seeing as we have time to kill until a faith+work=salvation adherent shows up maybe you could explain which side of the fence you'd to rest at for the purposes of discussion. I'm getting dizzy here

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 2:08 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Brian, posted 04-19-2006 3:16 PM iano has replied

  
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