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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 76 of 172 (305344)
04-19-2006 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
04-19-2006 7:33 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
We are all God's children.
the game being played is "make the connection"
But if you don't want to play...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 04-19-2006 7:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 04-19-2006 7:47 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 172 (305346)
04-19-2006 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by iano
04-19-2006 7:40 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
iano writes:
We are all God's children.
the game being played is "make the connection"
God created us all. Fathers create children.
Ergo we are all God's children.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 7:40 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 7:55 PM ringo has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 78 of 172 (305348)
04-19-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by iano
04-19-2006 6:23 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
Iano, you say
We can only accept the apparently contradictory things his word says in one way. By faith: he says it, I can't resolve it, I believe it. Why? Because he says so. Faith in him. There is no other way to reconcile such things...
(My bold)
So why do you choose to disbelieve Him when He says
31 But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand,'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in.
36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink?
38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'
40 "The King will answer them,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand,'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
44 "Then they will also answer, saying,'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?'
45 "Then he will answer them, saying,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.'
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
As Ringo has already pointed out, the word "all" in "all nations" includes "all", unless you think Jesus got it wrong again.
Now to Our Father. If you check out the passage just before the Lord's Prayer you'll find this little nugget in Matthew 6
"Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
2 Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward.
3 But when you do merciful deeds, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does,
4 so that your merciful deeds may be in secret, then your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
5 "When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most certainly, I tell you, they have received their reward.
6 But you, when you pray, enter into your inner chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
7 In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking.
8 Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him.
9 Pray like this:'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
13 Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.'
The "them" that we are encouraged not to pray like are the hypocrites who make a great show of their faith and prayer in public, nothng to do with them being non-Christians, or non-believers. Also you'll note the references to doing merciful deeds.
From Luke 10
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"
30 Jesus answered, "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion,
34 came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him,'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.'
36 Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?"
37 He said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
Note the last four words. It doesn't say "Go and think likewise", it tells us to do likewise. We are to show mercy to others, regardless of race, colour or creed and to show mercy you have to do things, whether it be to help, feed, clothe or comfort and this brings us neatly back to Matthew 25.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 6:23 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 8:28 PM Trixie has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 79 of 172 (305349)
04-19-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
04-19-2006 7:47 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
God created us all. Fathers create children.
Both true. Now the next connection. God was in the position of father when he created us all.
God named himself "I am" at one point. Not father. Why do you suppose God is alwaya and at all times father?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 04-19-2006 7:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 04-19-2006 8:09 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 172 (305353)
04-19-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by iano
04-19-2006 7:55 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
iano writes:
Why do you suppose God is alwaya and at all times father?
Once a father, always a father. No matter what his children do, no matter how he punishes them, a father is still a father to his children. Fatherhood is not something that can be undone.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 7:55 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 8:34 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 81 of 172 (305357)
04-19-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Trixie
04-19-2006 7:50 PM


Love thine enemy..
I did ask you before how it was you differentiated between a causal and a consequential interpretation of Matthew 25. Your answer? iF none then cool but don't please quote it again - I've heard it a zillion times but never an answer.
As Ringo has already pointed out, the word "all" in "all nations" includes "all", unless you think Jesus got it wrong again.
Everybody will stand before him to be judged. Christian and non alike. But judgement isn't a trial - it is a declaration of judgement. If one is a Christian one can expect one result. If not another. All people will stand. But the innocent (or rather: made innocent) know already what the judgment will entail. If you were innocent but had to face judgment then you can be confident of what will happen (assuming a judge who is in possession of all the facts of course) I don't see the father of all connection in any case. Can you be more specific?
quote:
8 Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him.
Them/you. Father pertains to the 'you' - not the 'them'
The "them" that we are encouraged not-to-pray-like are the hypocrites who make a great show of their faith and prayer in public, nothng to do with them being non-Christians, or non-believers
I agree. But are the 'them' just as much sons as are the 'you' Where is the link that implies this?
Note the last four words. It doesn't say "Go and think likewise", it tells us to do likewise. We are to show mercy to others, regardless of race, colour or creed and to show mercy you have to do things, whether it be to help, feed, clothe or comfort and this brings us neatly back to Matthew 25
Get this first from Luke 10:
28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?"
"desiring to justify himself". Patently this is not what one should be doing. What does justifying oneself involve. Getting into the nitty gritty of law abiding. He asks thus "Give me it precisely, exactly what it is I should do?" Implying "when I've done it I'll be (having done so myself) be justified"
Then Jesus gave him the nitty gritty. Don't skim the parable Trixie. your from Edinbourgh right. You might be a Ranger or a Celt. Your a Celt for now. Off the the saturday twice yearly battle - green in your hand. Tinnies with the boyz and the tribal of the conflict. Stand off in the train station and fights with the Sashnach. Your boyfriend takes a head to the nose and some creep in blue feels your ass
Now pick up the fat bellied, sick encrusted Ranger supporter who is slumped dead with drink in the luggage compartment of the dour, dank British Rail carriage your travelling in and take him to your home in a taxi. Let him sleep it off and give him some soup when he wakes - for you know what it is to wake from such a state.
In your dreams? Well that was the relationship between a Jew and a Samaritan in those days. Jesus is speaking to those who are enabled by him to do such impossible things. For those in whom he does not dwell such actions towards a Ranger are impossible. We in whom he dwells still have free will - that never changes. And our free will screams NO at the slob on the floor of the train. He exhorts us to do as he says. And enable that impossible.
On your own you cannot. And if it is that your house is a haven for pot-bellied drunk Rangers fans then let me know - I'll think of another example
This message has been edited by iano, 20-Apr-2006 01:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Trixie, posted 04-19-2006 7:50 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 04-19-2006 8:46 PM iano has not replied
 Message 85 by Trixie, posted 04-19-2006 9:03 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 82 of 172 (305359)
04-19-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
04-19-2006 8:09 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
I agree. But what I was hoping for what the father in the first place bit. Father of all in the first place.
Your doing good Ringo but your>not >putting >together>a>connected>case.
If it has to rely on a mystery at some point then say so will ya?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 04-19-2006 8:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 04-19-2006 8:43 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 172 (305362)
04-19-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by iano
04-19-2006 8:34 PM


Re: Trixie and Jar: the perfect couple? Except that...
iano writes:
but your>not >putting >together>a>connected>case.
You keep saying that. Why don't you just tell me what you want connected instead of asking a lot of inane questions?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 8:34 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 04-20-2006 8:11 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 172 (305363)
04-19-2006 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
04-19-2006 8:28 PM


When the Chrfistians find out they are the Goats...
will they too be surprised?
iano writes:
Everybody will stand before him to be judged. Christian and non alike. But judgement isn't a trial - it is a declaration of judgement. If one is a Christian one can expect one result. If not another. All people will stand. But the innocent (or rather: made innocent) know already what the judgment will entail. If you were innocent but had to face judgment then you can be confident of what will happen (assuming a judge who is in possession of all the facts of course) I don't see the father of all connection in any case. Can you be more specific?
I think most Christians will find out they are among the Goats. It's not a sure outcome, some Christians my get into the Sheep herd, but not that many. And the Goats will definitely be almost entirely Christians.
This message has been edited by jar, 04-19-2006 07:48 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 8:28 PM iano has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 85 of 172 (305370)
04-19-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
04-19-2006 8:28 PM


Re: Love thine enemy..
Iano, I'm well aware of the relationship between Jews and Samaritans at the time of the parable. Can't you just for once credit someone who disagrees with you with a modicum of intelligence? Must you be so patronising and obnoxious?
I'm ignoring your insulting sectarian bigotry analogy since it deserves neither the time nor the energy to reply to your slurs.
As to your differentiation between a causal and consequential interpretation of Matthew 25, stop gazing at your navel and just read the words. Those who think they are righteous are in for a shock, according to Matthew 25. They think they're righteous because they have faith, yet not a single good work did they do. What do you think Jesus was trying to say? Or do you think he was just burbling aimlessly to fill up a pause in the conversation?
You say
He exhorts us to do as he says
What part of "do" do you not understand?
What happens if you don't "do" as He says. What if you just sit back and do nothing, but you have faith in him? It means that you don't "do" as He says. Where does that leave you? Faith alone isn't enough, according to your very own words. Incase you've forgotten them, here they are again
He exhorts us to do as he says
Note the fifth word from the left, or even the fourth word from the right, the one which comes between "to" and "as". It starts with a "D", it finishes with an "O" and there are no letters in between. it appears in the following sentence
He exhorts us to do as he says
,
a quote from a chap called iano on this board, you might have come across him. However, you probably don't agree with much of what he says since he believes that faith alone is the cause of salvation and he would never claim of Jesus that
He exhorts us to do as he says
since claiming that would invalidate his whole "Salvation through faith alone" argument.
Edited for typo
This message has been edited by Trixie, 04-19-2006 09:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 8:28 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 9:13 PM Trixie has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 86 of 172 (305374)
04-19-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Trixie
04-19-2006 9:03 PM


Re: Love thine enemy..
Iano, I'm well aware of the relationship between Jews and Samaritans at the time of the parable. Can't you just for once credit someone who disagrees with you with a modicum of intelligence? Must you be so patronising and obnoxious?
I'm ignoring your insulting sectarian bigotry analogy since it deserves neither the time nor the energy to reply to your slurs.
My mate was on a plane flying back from a visit to Israel. He overheard a convesation going on behind him. It was an orthodox jew in grief with the steward serving drink. The Jew hadn't enough cash on him for the beer. Easy as pie my mate turns around and offers to pay for the beer. "If looks could kill! He looked at me as if satan himself was offering to by him a drink" Orthodox Jews consider gnetiles as they always have. As dogs.
I'm curious as to your taking it as sectarian. Its as if you imagine that sectarianism doesn't exist. Well it does Trixie. And the UVF merchant is asked to pick up the IRA guy who has been set upon by the RUC. Your a celt Trixie. A green as green celt. They exist. And you in green - for you know what they are like are asked to pick up an blue as blue.
Well, do ya punk?
since claiming that would invalidate his whole "Salvation through faith alone" argument.
Only if your father of all doctrine worked. Jesus talking to those that are already his and exhorting then to live as him is quite a different issue. Being saved doesn't mean you sit on your arse. You are exhorted to work. But just not to earn your salvation. You already have that.
This message has been edited by iano, 20-Apr-2006 02:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Trixie, posted 04-19-2006 9:03 PM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by anglagard, posted 04-19-2006 9:36 PM iano has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 87 of 172 (305377)
04-19-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by iano
04-19-2006 9:13 PM


Re: Love thine enemy..
Well, do ya punk?
Disgusting
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-19-2006 09:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 9:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 9:46 PM anglagard has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 88 of 172 (305380)
04-19-2006 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by anglagard
04-19-2006 9:36 PM


Re: Love thine enemy..
What? Flying on a plane? Don't tell me you've never flown on a plane before AG.
Or maybe it was something else that disgusted you. I'm off to bed so you have a portion of your time in this world to enlighten all here gathered
Night.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by anglagard, posted 04-19-2006 9:36 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 04-19-2006 9:55 PM iano has not replied
 Message 90 by anglagard, posted 04-19-2006 10:05 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 172 (305383)
04-19-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by iano
04-19-2006 9:46 PM


Re: Love thine enemy..
Not to worry iano, everyone can read Message 86 and Message 81 as well as the reasoned and respectable posts from Trixie in Message 85 and Message 78 and make their own assesments.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 9:46 PM iano has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 90 of 172 (305384)
04-19-2006 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by iano
04-19-2006 9:46 PM


Re: Love thine enemy..
Your condecension is appalling.
If you are arguing that salvation is through faith alone, then argue that point as from one adult to another. If your purpose is to make yourself feel superior, then have the guts to argue that you are superior to all others because...
(let me play the role of iano in this thread using my current opinions as arguing points)
I know you are trying to find God but are misguided. Your lack of empathy with others will prevent you from true salvation. The belief that you have found the final answer and require no other input will be your downfall.
Does it feel good to see yourself in a mirror? Read the above paragraph carefully, see yourself in it, and then see why you are not the best advertisement for Christianity.
Please allow me to be equally condescending. I feel you are intelligent and well meaning but for God's sake, please knock off the holier-than-thou crap.
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-19-2006 11:20 PM
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-19-2006 11:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 04-19-2006 9:46 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by iano, posted 04-20-2006 4:10 AM anglagard has not replied
 Message 92 by AdminPD, posted 04-20-2006 7:11 AM anglagard has not replied

  
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