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Author Topic:   Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 136 of 172 (305952)
04-22-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
04-22-2006 11:51 AM


Hell hath no fury
Lately, I've been thinking of heaven and hell as a continuum rather than a dichotomy.
That all very well Ringo. But there isn't any Biblical warrant for it. Except if one takes an a la carte view to what constitutes Gods word as you appear to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 2:43 PM iano has replied

  
smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 172 (305956)
04-22-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by iano
04-22-2006 2:27 PM


Re: OP OP OP OP OP OP
I'm afraid I do not understand what "OP" means.
Faith and works are not the same thing. You can have faith in Jesus Christ. If you live that faith you will do the will of the Father (notice, not just a posession of faith, but an execution of it -- action!). However, people can understand the teachings of Jesus and have faith that they are true, but if they don't do anything with it (but they run from a truth they understand to be true and know it's true) then they're in trouble (I say the guys who know are better off, because they're at least headed in the right direction. They guys who don't know anything at all are missing out (not necessarily condemned to hell, but missing out on the graces that Christ can pour out onto them).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 2:27 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:10 PM smak_84 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 172 (305957)
04-22-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
04-22-2006 2:31 PM


Hell hath no fury - Damn right it doethn't!
iano writes:
Lately, I've been thinking of heaven and hell as a continuum rather than a dichotomy.
That all very well Ringo. But there isn't any Biblical warrant for it.
On the contrary. The Bible says:
quote:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If the Lord is "not willing that any should perish", my guess is that it ain't gonna happen. It would seem that "salvation for all" is a given.
The Catholic Church uses "purgatory" as a temporary holding-cell/rehab-facility for those not ready for full-blown heaven - and the Pope could probably mount a pretty good defense for that concept.
What I'm saying isn't very different - you get what's coming to you, the punishment fits the crime, instant karma....
The concept of a loving God is irreconcilable with the concept of billions in eternal torment.
Except if one takes an a la carte view to what constitutes Gods word as you appear to do.
At least I'm ordering off the menu. You're trying to bring your own food in with you.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 2:31 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:05 PM ringo has replied
 Message 140 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 3:08 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 139 of 172 (305959)
04-22-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
04-22-2006 2:43 PM


Re: Hell hath no fury - Damn right it doethn't!
Biblical warrant for Ringos version Hell as a continum:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If the Lord is "not willing that any should perish", my guess is that it ain't gonna happen. It would seem that "salvation for all" is a given.
Salvation for all means saved from something. Hell presumably. Whatever, this isn't biblical backup for hell being a continum its 'backup' for universal salvation from something.
The concept of a loving God is irreconcilable with the concept of billions in eternal torment.
What about the concept of a wrathful God. Are those pages cut out of your bible too. If one takes the whole book then his wrath is referred to far more that his love.
Take Pauls (not the word of God in your view IIRC) talking of "the wrath of God is poured out upon all the ungodliness and wickedness of man"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 2:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 3:19 PM iano has replied

  
smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 172 (305960)
04-22-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
04-22-2006 2:43 PM


Re: Hell hath no fury - Damn right it doethn't!
Your notion of purgatory is incorrect. It's actually inconclusive if purgatory is a place or a state of being, or both. You also seem to imply that the Pope is the guy responsible for all of this, which is also an errornous assumption (he is standing on 2000 years of theological research).
Further you state that the Lord is "not willing that any should perish." First of all, check the Greek before you hinge on the word will. The same word could be translated "wish" (not necessarily the exercise of volition) Further Jesus' parable concerning Lazerus seems to quite acknowledge the fact that men can and do go to Hell.
And also, finish reading the rest of 2 Peter (and read the beginning of Chapter 3). Why the heck is the author even worried about his readers being without spot or blemish (it seems to imply that blemish is possible). Secondly, what is the destruction of the "godless" referring to in verse 7?
Also the thief theme that the author uses here has been used in one of Jesus' parables. It seems that this implies people cannot be ready and might be condmned. For God is a loving God, but a just God as well.
If you think everyone is saved by default, why don't I just go hire some strippers, go kill all the people I am angray at, and steal everyone's things? Will I still go to Heaven if I do these things (but I know I'm "saved" by faith so I can get away with it all!)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 2:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 4:00 PM smak_84 has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 141 of 172 (305961)
04-22-2006 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by smak_84
04-22-2006 2:38 PM


Counting sheep and goats?
Hi Smak.
OP means opening post. Post 1. Thread can go off on tangents and sometimes its worthwhile to remind a person entering the discussion as to what the main discussion is supposed to be about
Could you deal with the questions I raised in my response to your post? I challenged some of your statements directly and wouldn't mind them being dealt with before progressing.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 2:38 PM smak_84 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 3:39 PM iano has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 172 (305965)
04-22-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
04-22-2006 3:05 PM


Re: Hell hath no fury - Damn right it doethn't!
iano writes:
Salvation for all means saved from something. Hell presumably.
No, guilt. Self-imposed guilt. The message is "You are forgiven."
If one takes the whole book then his wrath is referred to far more that his love.
According to my scorecard:
Love: 311
Wrath: 199
but why quibble?
In any case - even setting word-countery aside, love beateth wrath, hands down.
quote:
Pro 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
A lil old soft answer is all it taketh.
(Notice that Percy doesn't provide very many "hatey" faces either.)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:05 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:32 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 143 of 172 (305967)
04-22-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
04-22-2006 3:19 PM


Hell hath no fury II
Would you like to try again?
Biblical evidence for Ringos: "Hell the continuum"
Love: 311
Wrath: 199
Fury, anger, rage, hatred etc? One only has to trawl around "Reasons why I won't believe" at EvC to garner the impression that many are under the impression that God is a wrathful. Whatever. Could you beef up the following notion with something other than sentimentality.
love beateth wrath, hands down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 3:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 3:41 PM iano has replied

  
smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 172 (305968)
04-22-2006 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by iano
04-22-2006 3:10 PM


Re: Counting sheep and goats?
As far as the opening post is concerned. Our judgement is a case by case basis. It is possible that an unbaptized (that is by water) could enter the kingdom of Heaven. For, if through no fault of his own he does not know God, but He lives a worthly life, why ought be be condemned (in this case if Jesus had been made know to Him he would've accepted, but never had the opportunity)? This is known as a baptism of desire - for God allowed us sacraments by which to invoke Him, but he's not limited by these. However, this doesn't mean we can be lazy and not baptize as he directed at the end of the Gospels.
Further, however, if there are persons who have the ability to be baptized and hear God's call to them, but they outright reject it and live according to their own desires, but not the wishes of God...these guys are in trouble.
Further the Mt 25 (I assume you mean vs 31-46) refers to the fact that they LIVED OUT their faith. The posession of faith alone will not necessarily result in good works (um, there hypocrites and cowards). There must be an ongoing submission to God's will. You can know and understand what the truth is, but you can run from it as well (all the while knowing that it is the truth).
In a response to your quotes, you're divorcing parts of the Bible from other parts. You have to look a the Bible in its entire context. Otherwise it might seem to apparently contradict itself. "Calling upon the Lord" has also been interperted as praying to Him and asking for His help. Just because we believe, doesn't mean heaven's a sure thing (it's a good start, but you must clothe the naked, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, et cetera).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:10 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 172 (305971)
04-22-2006 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by iano
04-22-2006 3:32 PM


Re: Hell hath no fury II
iano writes:
One only has to trawl around "Reasons why I won't believe" at EvC....
Sorry, I'm not familiar with that particular branch office of this forum. Link please?
Could you beef up the following notion with something other than sentimentality.
love beateth wrath, hands down.
Allow me to remind you that this is the Faith and Belief Forum. I am not contractually bound to back up anything I believe. Nor is the question particularly on-topic.
If you would care to bring your question over to the Bible Study Forum (why do you avoid the Bible Study Forum so studiously? ), I would be glad to enlighten you to the best of my exceedingly humble abilities.
If not, I have an endless supply of sentimentality to bury you in.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:32 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 146 of 172 (305972)
04-22-2006 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ringo
04-22-2006 3:41 PM


Hell hath no fury: III strikes?
I didn't bring up this off topic and but have watched some wriggling. If you do post something biblical to give some support for your version of hell-the-continuum I'll leave it stand without comment so we can all get back on topic
I've heard some others mention the idea but have never heard from whence the idea came.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 3:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 04-22-2006 4:07 PM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 147 of 172 (305974)
04-22-2006 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by smak_84
04-22-2006 3:08 PM


Re: Hell hath no fury - Damn right it doethn't!
smak_84 writes:
It's actually inconclusive if purgatory is a place or a state of being, or both. You also seem to imply that the Pope is the guy responsible for all of this....
I was just taking a good-natured poke at iano. I'm saying that my views on purgatory are similar to the Catholic Church's. I didn't mean any disrespect in the way I said it.
(he is standing on 2000 years of theological research)
Exactly.
If you think everyone is saved by default, why don't I just go hire some strippers....
Don't let me stop you.
... kill all the people I am angray at, and steal everyone's things?
You'll go to jail. Plenty of punishment for those things in this life. No need to wait for the next.
Will I still go to Heaven if I do these things
God decides, not me. According to Matthew 25, the good that you do will be weighed against the bad. According to my (hypothetical) scenario, you'll be slotted into the continuum depending on how you measure up.
(but I know I'm "saved" by faith so I can get away with it all!)?
Have you read any of my posts? Over a thousand - and six of them are pretty good.
I'm the guy who says your faith won't get you to heaven. Only your actions count.
Go back and look at Message 128.

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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 148 of 172 (305975)
04-22-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by iano
04-22-2006 3:49 PM


Re: Hell hath no fury: III strikes?
iano writes:
... have watched some wriggling.
I prefer to think of it as "skating on thin ice". But I'm Canadian - thin ice hath no fury for us.
I've heard some others mention the idea but have never heard from whence the idea came.
Can't help you there. I thought it up out of a clear blue sky this morning. Took me almost an hour to figure out how to work Hitler in.
If you do post something biblical to give some support for your version of hell-the-continuum I'll leave it stand without comment....
As I said, I'll do my Bible study in Bible Study. Feel free to wriggle your way over there.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by iano, posted 04-22-2006 3:49 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 149 of 172 (305976)
04-22-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by smak_84
04-22-2006 3:39 PM


Turning it to the OP
For, if through no fault of his own he does not know God, but He lives a worthly life, why ought be be condemned (in this case if Jesus had been made know to Him he would've accepted, but never had the opportunity)
Define worthy. Where is the point at which he is considered worthy or not worthy. Presumably there is a crossover point. And the OP was asking if so, doesn't that mean that the person who scrapes into heaven by just being on the right side of the the divide is separated from a person who just misses out by something as small as 0.1 second of unworthy action?
We are told to share the good news. In doing so could it be that a man who would have been considered worthy without having heard might now be damned. Damned because some mission worker shared the news but he didn't accept it?
Further the Mt 25 (I assume you mean vs 31-46) refers to the fact that they LIVED OUT their faith. The posession of faith alone will not necessarily result in good works (um, there hypocrites and cowards). There must be an ongoing submission to God's will. You can know and understand what the truth is, but you can run from it as well (all the while knowing that it is the truth).
I was asking how you differentiate between works in Matt 25 being casual to salvation or consequential as a result of having being saved
In a response to your quotes, you're divorcing parts of the Bible from other parts. You have to look a the Bible in its entire context. Otherwise it might seem to apparently contradict itself.
I'm aware of the difficulty. That's why we get 300 posts to thrash it out In toto I see salvation by faith alone.
"Calling upon the Lord" has also been interperted as praying to Him and asking for His help.
Perhaps. My point was simply that you said that calling upon his name wouldn't save. Whereas it patently will - whatever calling on his name happens to involve

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 3:39 PM smak_84 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 150 of 172 (305980)
04-22-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by iano
04-22-2006 2:26 PM


Re: Going back to the OP
iano writes:
No he doesn't. He says "faith without works is dead" If there are no works then the faith is dead. It isn't faith. If there are works then there is faith. Works are a marker for faith. If one has faith one will have works. Works a consequence of faith
I disagree with your interpretation. People can have faith without works and people can perform good works with no faith.
I contend that when Christian scripture is taken in its total context that the message of salvation is relatively clear. I think it can be summarized by the following three points.
1/ God is concerned about the condition of our hearts and not our theology. Is our heart focused on self, or is it focused on Him and our neighbour. Loving our neighbour is pretty straightforward but loving God is not as simple. God represents all that is good, honest and just. I suggest that when we love good and hate evil, love truth and hate lies, or love justice and hate injustice we are loving God.
2/ The Bible tells us that to whom much is given much is expected. Obviously the converse would be true as well. For example some one who is brought up in a loving home should normally be able to focus on others more easily than someone brought up in an abusive home.
3/ This is the point as it applies to Christians. When we truly turn to Christ through faith there is a mystical connection with the Holy Spirit that enlightens our own conscience or spirit and helps us to take the focus off of the self. This does not mean that we are going to be nicer or better citizens than our Atheistic next door neighbour, but it should mean that we are better and nicer than we had been. (This of course is an on-going process.)
In the end I believe that it boils down to our ability to let go of the love of self and gravitate towards the love of truth, goodness, justice and mercy for all.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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