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Author Topic:   Philosophy of Ideas
Phat
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Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 44 (305177)
04-19-2006 9:03 AM


I have been nosing around in my favorite spots...namely the Dictionary and the Encyclopedia...and have been impressed by some of the philosophical thought concepts that arose during the Enlightenment and sortly before that era.
Seeing as how we at EvC are constantly discussing ideas pertaining to our Faith and Belief, I wanted this thread to focus on the various philosophies of ideas and how they developed.
This is what I studied so far, and anyone can add to the list by introducing another philosophy and how it pertains to the modern thinking which the individual chooses to employ.
Concise Encyclopedia CD writes:
Scholasticism--movement, beginning in the 11th century, that sought to integrate the secular understanding of the ancient world, as exemplified by Aristotle, with the dogma implicit in the revelations of Christianity.
Modern philosophers influenced by Scholasticism include Jacques Maritain and tienne Gilson (1884-1978).
a-priori-In epistemology, knowledge that is independent of all particular experiences, as opposed to a posteriori (or empirical) knowledge, which derives from experience.
The terms have their origins in the medieval Scholastic debate over Aristotelian concepts (see Scholasticism). Immanuel Kant initiated their current usage, pairing the analytic-synthetic distinction with the a priori-a posteriori distinction to define his theory of knowledge.
Pragmatism-Philosophical movement first given systematic expression by Charles Sanders Peirce and William James and later taken up and transformed by John Dewey.
Pragmatists emphasize the practical function of knowledge as an instrument for adapting to reality and controlling it. Pragmatism agrees with empiricism in its emphasis on the priority of experience over a priori reasoning.
Pragmatists interpret ideas as instruments and plans of action rather than as images of reality; more specifically, they are suggestions and anticipations of possible conduct, hypotheses or forecasts of what will result from a given action, or ways of organizing behaviour.
Positivism is closely connected with empiricism, pragmatism, and logical positivism. More narrowly, the term designates the philosophy of Auguste Comte, who held that human thought had passed inevitably through a theological stage into a metaphysical stage and was passing into a positive, or scientific, stage.
Empiricism-Either of two closely related philosophical doctrines, one pertaining to concepts and the other to knowledge.
The first doctrine is that most, if not all, concepts are ultimately derived from experience; the second is that most, if not all, knowledge derives from experience, in the sense that appeals to experience are necessarily involved in its justification. Neither doctrine implies the other.
Several empiricists have allowed that some knowledge is a priori, or independent of experience, but have denied that any concepts are. On the other hand, few if any empiricists have denied the existence of a priori knowledge while maintaining the existence of a priori concepts.
In brief, I wanted this thread to allow for discussions on how we as individuals support and/or avoid some of these philosophical concepts and others like them. Faith and Belief or Coffee House, as anyone sees fit!
This message has been edited by Phat, 04-19-2006 07:06 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 44 (305215)
04-19-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
04-19-2006 9:03 AM


An a-priori type of guy
Personally, I believe that I am an a-priori type of guy in regards to faith/belief.
Whereas some people start with IF, I start with God. Call it a leap of faith.

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 Message 1 by Phat, posted 04-19-2006 9:03 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by robinrohan, posted 04-19-2006 11:06 AM Phat has replied
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 Message 8 by lfen, posted 04-20-2006 1:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 44 (305438)
04-20-2006 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by robinrohan
04-19-2006 11:06 AM


Re: An a-priori type of guy
RR writes:
And your justification for this leap of faith?
Now that you mention it, some of my Faith arose from experience. Seeing various circumstances arise that admittedly were attributed to God without critical analysis to prove the contrary. Some of us are just more comfortable to quit trying to prove and examine every single circumstance in life.
As an example, for those whom are married, do you find it necessary to prove that your wife actually loves you? Perhaps she seems busy enough with her life that there is no observable proof for days or weeks at a time. Or perhaps its the other way around....you are the one who forgets the aniversary or the special day...
yet she does not demand proof from you nor you from her! ( Well..in most cases!)
The moment that God became a reality in my life was one of those know that I know that I know that I know type of moments that many empirical thinkers and critical thinkers tend to never allow themselves to experience.
So, yes...it was a proverbial leap of faith.
No, it was not committed to without thought. And...
No, it is not an irrational and unreasonable faith for me.
I find my relationship with God to be challenging and at the same time liberating. At the same time, I can see where many critical thinkers never allow their emotions to get in the way of their faith.
One of my friends is a staunch Roman Catholic and, coincidentally, a very learned Physics graduate who works for Ball Aerospace. He can at the one moment explain to me things that would stump many a learned mind...(he is pro-evolution, BTW)
but yet at the same moment, his faith allows him to believe in the transubstantiation of the Eucharist! I, being one of those Protestants, always figured that I was drinking Grape Juice and Saltines (unsalted) but yet also believed in an unseen spiritual communion as well.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 44 (305508)
04-20-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by lfen
04-20-2006 1:23 PM


Re: An a-priori type of guy
Ifen writes:
What did you start with at birth? Or when you said your first word?
"Dadda"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by lfen, posted 04-20-2006 1:23 PM lfen has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 44 (305815)
04-21-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by John Galt
04-21-2006 9:25 PM


Re: Philosophies.....
Sure! Ayn Rand is welcome!
Concise CD writes:
She immigrated to the U.S. in 1926 after graduating from the University of Petrograd and worked as a screenwriter in Hollywood. She won a cult following with two best-selling novels presenting her belief that all real achievement comes from individual ability and effort, that laissez-faire capitalism is most congenial to the exercise of talent, and that selfishness is a virtue, altruism a vice. In The Fountainhead (1943), a superior individual transcends traditionalism and conformism. The allegorical Atlas Shrugged (1957) combines science fiction with her political message. She expounded her philosophy, which she called objectivism, in nonfiction works and as editor of two journals and became an icon of radical libertarianism.
I never quite agreed with Rand, for reasons which I forget! I gotta look them up again!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 44 (305816)
04-21-2006 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
04-21-2006 10:28 PM


Philosophies.....Ayn Rands Objectivism
Here is what I got off of AynRands website:
aynrand.org writes:
My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:
Reality exists as an objective absolute”facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.
Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses) is man's only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.
Man”every man”is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself.
The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit.
It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others.
The government acts only as a policeman that protects man's rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders.
In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.
When she says that Man is an end to himself, and that
The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
That grinds against my Christian worldview a bit!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 44 (305839)
04-22-2006 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by lfen
04-20-2006 11:57 PM


Re: An a-priori type of guy
Ifen writes:
I still wonder then what Phat knows a priori about God versus what he derived from evidence. I don't think I know anything a priori about God at all.
My Christian philosophy was kindled, in large measure, by an impartation---at least how I perceived it happening.
Our family grew up Methodist and my parents went to church as a social outlet and because, as my Dad once told me, "It makes you feel good!"
Jesus was never glorified or spoken of as openly as I speak of Him now. There were many years that I never considered going to church! Once, I was swept into a cult known as The Way International. This girl got me involved and I took the Power for abundant Living course...all the while stoked on cocaine, which I was addicted to in those days. Needless to say, I never really got into The Way and soon found drugs and old friends much more comforting.
Philosophically, I always considered the idea of God and of traditional Christian concepts as plausible but not necessary.
In late 1992, as I was in the best shape of my life riding my bicycle up and down mountain passes, another old girl whom I knew invited me to church. I agreed on principle because I trusted her and also because I was tired of getting high on pot every day of my life. I never expected the church would have any impact on my life, and I certainly was never planning on "being born again!"
The way I knew it, I had said the prayer enough that I was most certainly already saved. One memorable day, however, I literally experienced an impartation so convincing that I couldnt question it if I tried! I simply knew that God was real at that moment and have known this a-priori conclusion ever since then!
It can be argued that my indoctorination was a gradual lifestyle that had led up to an emotional catharsis.
I won't deny empirical reasons for the epiphany that I had, yet in my own mind and soul I see it as a factual change and not an indoctorination.
I left that church after learning charismatic acceptable Protestant doctorines similar to the Assemblies of God denomination and doctorines, and I have developed a critical analysis of my faith and belief since that time.
One key example of my questioning about faith and belief centers around our own EvC discussions regarding creedal christianity which assert that all people are saved and simply need to come to an awareness of the fact---which contradicts what I was taught ---that many are called yet few are chosen.
I agree that behavior is important, yet I am unconvinced that there does not await an impartation of the reality of God for some of us that we have not yet experienced.
Since I say experienced, I suppose that my claim of a-priorian philosophy could be challenged!
So...Ifen...perhaps my impartation was an experience more than a knowing but it was instantaneous.
This message has been edited by Phat, 04-21-2006 11:44 PM

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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 Message 14 by lfen, posted 04-20-2006 11:57 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by lfen, posted 04-22-2006 3:02 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 44 (305898)
04-22-2006 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by lfen
04-22-2006 3:02 AM


Re: An a-priori type of guy
Ifen writes:
Interesting. Would you care to say more about your experience? Would you say that during this experience you were in a non ordinary state of consciousness or was your awareness typical?
IIRC, I was not in any different frame of mind than would befit a typical day. I DO recall that after the conversion experience, I was able to stop smoking pot on a daily basis for the first time in my life and, let me tell you, that was no easy task! It was not something that the church even knew about, yet it was a decisive lifestyle change for me!
By my making some rather profound choices, one could assert that I was effecting the change---but from my perspective, the change had already happened!
I DO recall a few altered states of consciousness after the day, however! Whether or not these were due to my sudden withdrawl from marijuana or not, I cannot say. I was on a natural high which could have been due to my bodies normalization of serotonin levels, or some other such explanation. I have, of course, attributed the experience as an ongoing process that is God-ordained, but of course I would be biased!
I can say that this one experience allowed me to know that I know that God is real, but in truth it has been a combination of experiences added to that one which validated my belief. Interestingly, the opposite occurs for others involved in organized religion---they have an epiphany which shows them that the beliefs lack validity....go figure...
Ain't gonna stop me from spreading the good news that remains very real in my heart, however!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 44 (305901)
04-22-2006 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by John Galt
04-22-2006 9:03 AM


Re: Philosophies.....Ayn Rands Objectivism
John Galt writes:
Spirituality , in my understanding of Objectivism, CAN be achieved through the success and achievement of our works. What is spirituality but the confirmation of life and discovering peace within?
In the context of objectivism, is spirituality a material thing? Is an individual concept of awareness or belief necessarily a spiritual reality?
John Galt writes:
Discovery of God or a higher power is another story.
Apparantly you see it that way. Perhaps you see self actualization as a form of confirmation and validation of your purpose in life. If so, God would be another story in relation to your awareness of Him. (or her...or another higher power)

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 Message 27 by John Galt, posted 04-22-2006 9:03 AM John Galt has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 44 (306025)
04-22-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by John Galt
04-22-2006 12:13 PM


Peek-a-boo
John Galt writes:
First of all, so its easier on me in the future, could you explain how I quote what you have written so that my replies are easier to understand?
Yes. See the button called PEEK? press peek and see the raw text that I created.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 44 (308449)
05-02-2006 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Malachi-II
04-30-2006 5:36 AM


Faith comes from Experience
Malachi II writes:
I believe one's experience of God reveals more than words about God.
Words can only say so much, but they can't convey the reality of feeling! Your story is very touching!
Malachi II writes:
I more or less concluded that I had a guardian angel (I believe every human being has one. Whether we believe it or not is a matter of personal choice.)
I can vouch for the ultimate benefit in my life and relationships from believing in and accepting the evidence of the presence of my guardian angel. I require no further proof.
I turned away from orthodox beliefs when I found them to be elitist and, often, hypocritical and protectionist institutions operating in their own understanding and belief in God. Fine for many. Not for myself.
I have had similar experiences regarding a touch from a supernatural or otherwise unexplainable source. Whether it was God or one of Gods messengers does not affect the reality of the experience.
Malachi II writes:
At my weakest point I picked up my Bible. It fell open at Chapter 14 of John’s Gospel. Verse 12 leapt off the page. Then Verse 26. I had never heard those words read from any pulpit.
John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:26-But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Wow! I once was bicycling at 10,000 feet and was dying for energy. I softly called out "Daddy" and felt a peace come over me. This was before I "officially" got saved....and I knew in my heart that the Daddy I was talking to was not my earthly father (long since deceased.)
Malachi II writes:
I have yet to find any lie spoken by Jesus.
Many try and discredit Him, yet His words ring true for eternity!
Malachi II writes:
I have yet to find any man, including myself, who does not or has never lied.
Yes...it shows that we are not gods or even a part of god. We can but be in communion with God...but we ain't Him!
Malachi II writes:
So, whether or not my boyhood experience was an hallucination, a malfunction of the brain, or easily explained neurological nonevent, sufficient evidence for me exists in how I conduct my life and thoughts.
A great story!

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 Message 36 by Malachi-II, posted 04-30-2006 5:36 AM Malachi-II has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 44 (844582)
12-02-2018 12:36 PM


What Is Evidence?
I was looking online to get deeper in regards to the need for evidence and how it relates to philosophy. I found this:
What Is Evidence? A Philosophical Perspective
I will be discussing this more after I fully read it.
His basic conclusion is this:
quote:
Evidence is something that is
produced by deliberate, conscious, institutionalized human activity. It is the result of choice,
and like any choice, it is therefore driven by values. We do it this way. We could also do it
that way. The different choices would be underpinned by different values, which we have to
talk about explicitly and agree to and accept within a democratic context rather than have
them play themselves out behind our backs as I think they all too often do today.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Straggler, posted 12-02-2018 5:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 44 (844686)
12-04-2018 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Straggler
12-02-2018 5:52 PM


Re: What Is Evidence?
So what evidence are you claiming here and why should we treat it any more or less dismissively than tea leaf reading (for example)?
I'm not sure I have any objective evidence. I have only subjective personal experiences...none recently, mind you--that initially convince me of a probability greater than tea leaf readings.
I really don't require evidence before I further commit to belief. I am aware that even if God exists and somehow wants communion with me (and you and Peggy Sue) he still won't run my life nor fix all of my problems.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Straggler, posted 12-02-2018 5:52 PM Straggler has replied

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