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Author Topic:   An invitation for jar to discuss his ideas further.
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4628 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 1 of 6 (306051)
04-23-2006 12:48 AM


This is an invitation for jar to discuss his ideas concerning the lack of a fall in the Genesis account further.

In one reply to Percy, jar responded in Message 275:

jar writes:

That's often the story when examining folk lore. Here we are, looking at tales that were probably told about 4000 years ago. They were probably repeated around the campfire for over a thousand years, told, retold, embellished, revised before finally being put into writing.

The first hurdle is to try to place oneself in the position, the point of view of the person from that era. What was the message they were trying to tell? Why did they create the legend?

Perhaps even harder is determining what the relevance of the story is today. What can we learn from the story? Why was it important enough to be included? Why did the people compiling the Torah include two such dissimilar and mutually exclusive tales?

In a reply to me, however, within the same thread, jar replied to my own query about this idea with this in Message 258...

jar writes:

Not at all. The reason that you wouldn't reword the passage is that would not work as the plot device for the storyteller making up the story. The story teller is trying to explain why things die. It's a nice series of Just So stories that explain why things die, why you should take a day off, why you have to till the fields instead of just grazing off the land, why you should fear snakes and why women are less than men.

I'll note that the idea that these ideas were 'Just So' stories seems to be a significant departure from his original idea presented to Percy which suggested a means to determine the 'relevance of the story' in ancient times and in our modern.

If promoted, all participants would be welcome. I also specifically invite Percy and Faith for this thread, as it will inevitably come back to jar's ideas presented to explain why the Genesis account apparently lacks 'a fall'.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 04-23-2006 11:58 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded
 Message 3 by AdminPhat, posted 04-23-2006 12:05 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 6 (306116)
04-23-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-23-2006 12:48 AM


Not sure I even have a clue what you are asking?
I don't see any real difference between the two quotes you included or what either of them has to do with the issue of whether there was a Fall.

One of the other Admins might see a topic in here but as it stands I don't see what else I might have to contribute.


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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-23-2006 12:48 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

    AdminPhat
    Administrator
    Posts: 1907
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-03-2004


    Message 3 of 6 (306118)
    04-23-2006 12:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    04-23-2006 12:48 AM


    stick to positions and not personalities
    I think that a topic on the Fall from the perspective of the early cultures and authors would be feasible.

    I don't think that it is necessary to try and include an argument or discussion with Jar. It would not be practical since he does not seem interested in a debate.

    If Jar sees no evidence for a Fall, that is his belief and right.

    I feel that any discussion against his belief is not appropriate in regards to Forum Guidelines.

    Lets try and avoid targeting individual beliefs and persons, without their consent or understanding.

    That being said, you are welcome to propose a new topic on your beliefs and views of these issues.

    This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-23-2006 10:07 AM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-23-2006 12:48 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-23-2006 1:58 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

      
    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 4628 days)
    Posts: 708
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 4 of 6 (306135)
    04-23-2006 1:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by AdminPhat
    04-23-2006 12:05 PM


    Re: stick to positions and not personalities
    I don't see where it's a personal attack on jar by inviting him to discuss his ideas further.

    If jar doesn't want to discuss this idea further, I'm fine with that.

    It seems to me, however, since Percy (an intelligent atheist), Faith (a conservative evangical) and myself (a moderate Catholic) all seemed to disagree with his interpretations, his idea probably wouldn't stand up to too much scrutiny anyway.

    I mean, if jar 'believes' this about the earliest Hebrew Scriptures, I'll respect that. However, whenever he states this, he also seems to insinuate that others who may hold a different opinion are most likely not understanding the 'real meaning' behind it-- or in some way reading 'more' into the Hebrew Scriptures than orginally implied.

    Certainly, if you feel that any discussion against one's beliefs are not appropriate in regards to Forum Guidelines, then perhaps jar himself should reconsider his own assertions against other Christians here, such as the claim that there will be more atheists in heaven than Christians for example. His assertions certainly seem to be discussions against other's Christians beliefs-- which, by the rules noted, is apparently not appropriate.

    It seems to me that jar's ideas about there being a 'lack of a fall' portrayed in the Genesis account, an idea which others here have likewise expressed, requires more questions to understand it properly. As stated thus far, people can say they believe there is no fall recorded in the Genesis account-- but this 'belief', as far as I am able to determine, does not appear to bear any resemblance to the Genesis account itself.

    I realize that this thread will most likely not go any further than this 'proposed new topic'. So I thank you for at least addressing this request.


    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by AdminJar, posted 04-23-2006 4:30 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded
     Message 6 by AdminOmni, posted 04-23-2006 9:40 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

      
    AdminJar
    Inactive Member


    Message 5 of 6 (306155)
    04-23-2006 4:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    04-23-2006 1:58 PM


    Try to stick to one topic
    And now you bring in yet another topic, "such as the claim that there will be more atheists in heaven than Christians for example".

    That is why I would not consider the topic for promotion. As I said in my response to you there was no connection between the quotes you included and the Fall. The quotes are on the origin of the Genesis stories and their general purpose, the Fall is one item found in some of the Genesis accounts but not others and now you add the idea of who is saved.

    Try editing the OP and see if you can put together one idea. Then I or some other Admin can see if it's promotable.


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  • This message is a reply to:
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    AdminOmni
    Inactive Member


    Message 6 of 6 (306206)
    04-23-2006 9:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    04-23-2006 1:58 PM


    Re: stick to positions and not personalities
    I have an idea, Mr.

    Why don't you distill the ideas you want to challenge and/or champion from your OP(s) and propose them as a new topic?

    You don't have to challenge jar to challenge what you see as his ideas.

    By the way,

    It seems to me, however, since Percy (an intelligent atheist)

    I don't think Percy would agree with your characterization.

    In the meantime, you are abusing the PNT process to post assertions rather than refine your topic. I'm closing the thread.


    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    Trust me.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-23-2006 1:58 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

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