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Author Topic:   What is the soul?
smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 165 (306152)
04-23-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by RickJB
04-23-2006 2:59 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
I'll look into Wittgenstein, it sounds like his philosophy has something to it.
eternal tree "form" is somehow extant outside the mind
I wouldn't necessarily say eternal. If I implied that, that was a mistake. But there is an existence independant of the mind.
transferred between souls on some unidentified level
I wouldn't say forms are transferred at all. They are recognized and sense impressions are created. Like when you see a color. You recognize the color, and your eye picks up on the wavelength and creates a sense impression in your mind abstracting the color (but the form for color exists independantly being the cause of the color's existence). Same as such with the form. You abstract what the form is from the sense impressions of an object.
Forms work like this:
Why do I fall down out of a tree?
Because the effects of gravity pull me toward the earth.
What is gravity?
It is the attraction between two masses.
What causes this attraction?
...?
There are theories, but nothing definite.
The same arguement can be applied to attractions between atoms and more specifically - subatomic particles. What is the cause of the attraction of these pieces to each other?
Why do opposites attract?
There are theories. How about a Philosophical Moderate Dualist theory:
"There is an immaterial substance (form) that causes these things to attract each other. An immaterial substance which is unmeasurable (as we only have material devices to measure things)."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by RickJB, posted 04-23-2006 2:59 PM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by RickJB, posted 04-23-2006 7:50 PM smak_84 has not replied
 Message 63 by smak_84, posted 04-23-2006 10:45 PM smak_84 has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 62 of 165 (306190)
04-23-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by smak_84
04-23-2006 4:07 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
Ah well, we've obviously got some crossed wires here!
But do look into Wittgenstein, his philosophy is not without its problems and contradictions but it does attempt to explain a manner in which consciousness and concepts exist in a close relationship with language. I'm sure you'd find it interesing.
Cheers-
This message has been edited by rjb, 04-23-2006 07:53 PM

This message is a reply to:
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smak_84
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 165 (306212)
04-23-2006 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by smak_84
04-23-2006 4:07 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
The "form" I propose is related to the unexplainable attraction between masses - the happening called intermolecular forces.
I unfortunatly cannot continue this discussion, as I'm beginning work that's going to keep me from the internet, so don't reply to any more of my posts, because I won't be able to read them. I thank all who've helped me deepen my understanding of this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by smak_84, posted 04-23-2006 4:07 PM smak_84 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by RickJB, posted 04-24-2006 5:03 AM smak_84 has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 64 of 165 (306247)
04-24-2006 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by smak_84
04-23-2006 10:45 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
I jusr re-read post 61 and realised that at its end you stray into very strange territory. I think after all I was right about where you were heading with your idea of forms.
quote:
What is gravity?
It is the attraction between two masses.
What causes this attraction?
...?
There are theories, but nothing definite.
Science doesn't offer definite answers, but the current theories of gravity are backed by lots of evidence.
quote:
The same arguement can be applied to attractions between atoms and more specifically - subatomic particles. What is the cause of the
attraction of these pieces to each other?
Opposing electrical charges mostly. There's plenty of info out there on this subject. It certainly isn't the mystery you paint it as.
As I said before, I do tentatively believe that humans create do some kind of mental "form" for any material objects they observe, but I cannot agree with your concept of "form" as some kind of universal physical force for which there is absolutely no evidence.
I would suggest reading up on the current theories and observations regarding gravity and atomic structures before deciding whether there is any need for some new physical theory of forms. Also, be advised that the high historical status of the works of Aristotle and Aquinas does not mean that their work has been immune to being surpassed by the further accumulation of knowledge thereafter. Those men tried to make sense of a world that was far less technologcally advanced than ours, so to apply their ideas to modern science is of very limited value.
This message has been edited by RickJB, 04-24-2006 05:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 165 (306256)
04-24-2006 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
04-21-2006 5:11 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
OMG, not this crap again
Any entity we could think up would fall into one of those two categories of mind and matter, or being and thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-21-2006 5:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2006 9:08 PM robinrohan has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 66 of 165 (306295)
04-24-2006 11:45 AM


This is [soul]

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 67 of 165 (306301)
04-24-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by smak_84
04-22-2006 11:48 AM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
This is the mind's ability to recognize immaterial forms. It is that which makes a tree to be a tree (and not something else - and there must be something that causes this, because nothing cannot effect something).
Philosophy as well as brain science has made quite a few advancements in the last hundred years.
These "immaterial forms" are brain functions. The brain creates these forms based on sense input, knowledge, and the way the organism functions in its environment.
Form is thus a functional abstraction and a reification of a process.
Tree(treeing) is a space time phenomena that is close scale to human(peopling) space time phenomena. It is a matter energy vortex and we can recognize that pattern.
In brief form is immaterial because it is a concept.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by smak_84, posted 04-22-2006 11:48 AM smak_84 has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 68 of 165 (306302)
04-24-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by robinrohan
04-24-2006 8:23 AM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
mind and matter, or being and thing.
Let me see if coming at it from this directions is productive.
You seem to be dividing the universe into either mind and matter, or being and thing. My question is where do you classify energy? process? or action?
I don't see energy, process, or actions as being either matter, mind, being, or things.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by robinrohan, posted 04-24-2006 8:23 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 04-24-2006 3:33 PM lfen has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 165 (306316)
04-24-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by lfen
04-24-2006 1:07 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
Lfen writes:
You seem to be dividing the universe into either mind and matter, or being and thing. My question is where do you classify energy? process? or action?
I don't see energy, process, or actions as being either matter, mind, being, or things.
Isn't the operative word "entity?"
RR writes:
Any entity we could think up would fall into one of those two categories of mind and matter, or being and thing. Message 65
Ask.com writes:
ENTITY: noun: pl., -ties.
Something that exists as a particular and discrete unit: Persons and corporations are equivalent entities under the law.
The fact of existence; being.
The existence of something considered apart from its properties.
Granted that "corporation" is hard to classify as either a being or a thing, though I'd go for "thing" myself. But energy, process and actions are not entities.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2006 03:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by lfen, posted 04-24-2006 1:07 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by lfen, posted 04-24-2006 4:10 PM Faith has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 70 of 165 (306320)
04-24-2006 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
04-24-2006 3:33 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
From an earlier post in this subthread Robin wrote:
"Logically, that is all there is."
I haven't yet figured out a fast way to quote from multiple posts. I can quote from the post I'm replying to. I suppose I could open multiple tabs in firefox to copy from the different posts.
Robin did say entity but earlier he also seemed to say that entities were logically all there is. His brevity can be ambiguous.
Of course I'm trying to figure out how to explain that entities are a result of our brain's response to the world. My model is that entities don't exist out there in the universe. What exists out there are processes. We concretize aspects those processes that we relate to for some reason. Such as eating them.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 04-24-2006 3:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 04-24-2006 4:31 PM lfen has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 165 (306322)
04-24-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by lfen
04-24-2006 4:10 PM


What's so ultimate about processes anyway?
I'm usually too lazy to quote from multiple posts myself, and there is no fast way I know of either.
Of course I'm trying to figure out how to explain that entities are a result of our brain's response to the world. My model is that entities don't exist out there in the universe. What exists out there are processes. We concretize aspects those processes that we relate to for some reason. Such as eating them.
I don't know how anyone can be content with such a way of thinking. I figure our brains respond to what actually is there. It all seems academic anyway. So what if "what exists out there" are "processes" at some level? Clearly entities that are formed by those processes are no less a reality for that, and none of us has a problem recognizing that fact. I can be aware of my body as a body AND also conceptualize it as an organized bunch of organs, or an organized bunch of molecules or an organized bunch of atoms or an organized bunch of processes {abe: all "things" except maybe processes}, and of my soul {abe: a being} as something else from all of that as well while intimately connected to it all.
What makes processes any more real in your mind than all those other ways of conceptualizing?
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2006 04:33 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2006 04:47 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by lfen, posted 04-24-2006 4:10 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by lfen, posted 04-24-2006 10:34 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 165 (306345)
04-24-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by robinrohan
04-24-2006 8:23 AM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
Any entity we could think up would fall into one of those two categories of mind and matter, or being and thing.
Logically, that's just not true
But I don't wanna argue with you when all your gonna do is use your own definitions for words and argue them with your own form of logic.
Leave your logical arguments out of it and define entity, mind and being and maybe I'll discuss it with you but otherwise, don't even bother replying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by robinrohan, posted 04-24-2006 8:23 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by robinrohan, posted 04-24-2006 9:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 165 (306348)
04-24-2006 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2006 9:08 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
But I don't wanna argue with you when all your gonna do is use your own definitions for words and argue them with your own form of logic.
Leave your logical arguments out of it and define entity, mind and being and maybe I'll discuss it with you but otherwise, don't even bother replying
What's your problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2006 9:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2006 9:43 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 165 (306354)
04-24-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by robinrohan
04-24-2006 9:17 PM


Re: "Soul" is the best word I think
What's your problem?
Well, that's off topic.
But,
In this message Message 191 you set out an incorrect argument with false premises and refused to do anything but reiterate your premises or play the logic card (with your own weird form of logic). In this thread, you made another outlandish claim and then threw the logic card out there again. So, I'm not gonna "go through the motions" again if you're gonna pull the same crap. When I saw you say "Logically" I rolled my eyes and stopped.
Like I said typed:
quote:
I don't wanna argue with you when all your gonna do is use your own definitions for words and argue them with your own form of logic.
But anyways, lets not derail this thread into off-topic land, so don't reply. Open a new thread if you care to discuss any of this, I just didn't want to open a new thread to explain my problem, which it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by robinrohan, posted 04-24-2006 9:17 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 75 of 165 (306363)
04-24-2006 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
04-24-2006 4:31 PM


Re: What's so ultimate about processes anyway?
What makes processes any more real in your mind than all those other ways of conceptualizing?
Processes in my mind are a better modeling of what goes on and of what we are.
The most important process to me is my "self process". The thing model leads to the question "who am I?". Not a bad question. The process model leads a questioning along the lines of "What am I" or "How am I functioning."
This model leads to an appreciation of the universe as a higly complexly interacting system of mutually interdependent processes.
So what part of the process of a human being is being referred to by the word "soul"?
I believe the ancients were referring to the breathing process but later it appears some consciousness of emotion or feelings is perhaps referred to?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 04-24-2006 4:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 04-25-2006 12:02 AM lfen has replied

  
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