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Author Topic:   What is the soul?
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2318 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 91 of 165 (306661)
04-26-2006 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by lfen
04-25-2006 10:23 PM


Re: The illusion of selflessness
What is "separateness"?
You don't ask much do you?
Even if my personality is a process, fundamentally interlocked with other processes, the effect is to create the appearence of myself as a discrete entity. And it is that experience of myself as a discrete entity that is my experience of 'me'. Even if I have moments in which I am aware of my connection with the rest of the universe, even sometimes to the extent of forgetting myself entirely, this sense of connection can never be a permanent thing even for the most dedicated monk. While I'm alive the 'me-ness' will always push itself forward, must push itself forward if I'm ever to do anything.
And when I'm dead, I'm dead, whether I'm an entity or a process.
And how do you mean permanent state, do you mean it's eternal?
For my lifetime, of course - which I guess is eternity for me.
Fatal means it kills. What does this fatal illusion kill?
The hope of seeing the world as it is.

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by lfen, posted 04-25-2006 10:23 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 165 (306668)
04-26-2006 8:16 AM


ifen
If everything is process, what is it that's being processed?

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 93 of 165 (306717)
04-26-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by JavaMan
04-26-2006 7:57 AM


Re: The illusion of selflessness
While I'm alive the 'me-ness' will always push itself forward, must push itself forward if I'm ever to do anything.
That is the majority experience of our lives and of humanity. The Buddha said that awakening was rare. The word "sage" refers to those who claim to experience life from a non "me-ness" perspective.
Revealed religions are based on some experience a self has that imparts information about some ultimate reality. Buddhism as a religion is based on the experience of an individual who discovered that there was no self, or soul and who said that that perception is true for everyone and that they might be able to see it.
On the other hand you don't have to accept or be interested in it.
I'll quote a brief passage from the first page of Wayne Liquorman's book Accepting What Is:
...I want to emphasize that nothing I say is the Truth. ...Truth can't be spoken. All of these words, all of these concepts are simply pointers, indicators of a Truth that is right here--that is ever-present--as clear, and as unmasked as it could possibly be.
You might hear in this the opening words of Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching that the true Way is nameless but in order to talk about it he has to uses names so he calls it the Way.
lfen

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 94 of 165 (306723)
04-26-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
04-26-2006 8:16 AM


Re: ifen
If everything is process, what is it that's being processed?
This is one of the best, if not the best question you've ever asked!
This is a fundamental question.
I'd like to hear from the physic people here for I think an answer is energy which then leads to the question: What is energy? I have chosen energy because as I understand it fundamentally all we can say about what matter is is that it can transform into energy per the E equals mc squared expression.
Contemporary nondualists would most likely answer Consciousness (note the capitalization) as in Franklin Merrell-Wolff's Consciousness without an object. Merrell-Wolff and Liquorman explicitly use the word Consciousness to indicate the fundamental mystery that is happening. Ramana would have spoken of the Self (the capitalization means this refers to pure Isness and not to self as the subject experiencing the objects of human existence.)
running out of time this morning. That is such an excellent question I'll be thinking about it for some time.
lfen

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 95 of 165 (306755)
04-26-2006 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by lfen
04-26-2006 12:45 PM


Re: ifen
Ifen
I have chosen energy because as I understand it fundamentally all we can say about what matter is is that it can transform into energy per the E equals mc squared expression.
This is not correct since the equation E=Mc^2 is an equivalence expression between mass and energy. This is to say that energy and mass are two sides of the same coin.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 165 (306774)
04-26-2006 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by sidelined
04-26-2006 2:52 PM


Re: ifen
This is to say that energy and mass are two sides of the same coin.
Two forms of the same substance--analogous to water and ice?
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-26-2006 02:54 PM

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 97 of 165 (320343)
06-11-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DeclinetoState
03-16-2006 2:15 AM


I don't know exactly what it is, but I can tell you what I feel.
My soul is who I am, the chemical make-up of my brain, my DNA, my thoughts, whatever. It seems to me mostly physical, and can be damaged.
My Spirit, wasn't awakened until about 2 years ago, and that is when I felt something different inside of me. No doubt, someone will say it is just my mind playing games with me, but that's ok.
About a month and a half ago, I had a strange experience, that was probably caused by a severe migrain headache. I actually did not know who, what, or where I was, or what time of year it was. It lasted all of 1 second, and then my head was screwed up for about 2 weeks afterward. It happened the night I got a pretty bad headache.
Yea, I had every test in the world done to me, from MRI's, EEG, blood work, x-rays, you name it. They never found out exactly what it was. They even thought it was a seizure, and gave me medicine for it. I took one pill, and said forget this crap. What a bad experience.
The funny thing, is when that moment happened, and for that split second, I did not know who I was, but I knew my spirit. I felt like me, whoever that was, and I knew I was me, and that would not change. I think that was my spirit.
The next week or so, I had trouble maintaining thoughts is my head. You know in a chess match when you think several moves in advance, well I do that on a regular basis, with everything, since I am into so much, running my own business and everything.
I couldn't keep the first move in my head. The next day, I couldn't remember the easiest songs when I played in the church. I was putting wrong words in my sentences, and I knew it. But my spirit was there, and I felt like me. I was not scared, I felt like God was going to handle the situation. Funny, I felt like God was trying to show me something, maybe about my spirit, and how separate it is from the physical being?
Oh and just becasue I felt like God was going to handle it, doesn't mean I should ignore technology in the least.Everything is from God anyway, so it was a learning experience to go through. From the begining, I thought they wouldn't find what was wrong, and in time I would be fine, and that is what happened.
I know this is all subjective, but it's what I went through.
Lol, I thought it was Christmas when I lost mind, and it was spring. Funny how I thought it was Christmas.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 98 by lfen, posted 06-11-2006 1:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 98 of 165 (320520)
06-11-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by riVeRraT
06-11-2006 12:03 AM


Funny, I felt like God was trying to show me something, maybe about my spirit, and how separate it is from the physical being?
RR,
I am very interested in your experience. Experiences like you had have been recorded through history by people in different parts of the world and different religious traditions. Your experience gives you a tiny taste of what the Buddha was talking about, or what the Hindu Sages down to Ramana are talking about. This was also experienced by Christian contemplatives, Sufi mystics, etc.
What I want to briefly comment on is that you moved from concepts about derived from language to direct experience of. For some individuals who experienced this there were headaches, sometimes severe, and sometimes for a prolonged period of time, but that is not a feature for all. The experiences though having typical features are individual and different.
If you are interested in other's experiences I can give you some references but you may prefer to just allow your path to unfold on its own.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 06-11-2006 12:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 99 of 165 (320743)
06-12-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by lfen
06-11-2006 1:47 PM


I believe it was a headache that caused it, and there was a tingling in my head for 2 weeks that followed, and headaches.
It affected my memory.
I feel fully recovered from it now.
My point was, I guess that even though I lost all that memory, I still had a feeling "of", or a sense of being? Which even though I couldn't relate it to anything, I knew it was me.

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fred
Junior Member (Idle past 5962 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 11-28-2007


Message 100 of 165 (437548)
11-30-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jaywill
03-16-2006 8:17 AM


You are correct soul & spirit are two different things. As you stated man became a living soul, not man was given a soul. The soul is man himself. The soul can die Eze 18:4. Animals are souls Lev 24:18. The spirit is a lfe force. Before God breathed into man the breath of life he was lifeless. Ec 3:19-21 discusses what happens at deat respection both humans & animals. The spirit or life force goes out, they die. The spirit could be likened to electricity. BBy itsely electricity has no personality, when when it activates a light it glows, when turned off it goes out. So too with the spirit it is the life force in all living creatures . When it goes out the creature dies. The light does not go anywhere it simply ceases to exist.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 101 of 165 (437556)
11-30-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by fred
11-30-2007 1:44 PM


So too with the spirit it is the life force in all living creatures
Living creatures do not possess a "life force." There's no such thing as "life force." Living things are animated by the chemical reactions that go on in their cells, and what drives those reactions is merely the fact that some arrangements of electrons in and between atoms are more stable than others.
Aside from the chemical energy produced by the formation of chemical bonds, there's nothing that could be described as "life force." And that chemical energy is not specific to living things, but present in all chemical reactions and interactions.
There's no such thing as "life force."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by fred, posted 11-30-2007 1:44 PM fred has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by fred, posted 11-30-2007 2:12 PM crashfrog has replied

  
fred
Junior Member (Idle past 5962 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 11-28-2007


Message 102 of 165 (437558)
11-30-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by crashfrog
11-30-2007 1:59 PM


Call it what you like, but there is a difference between life & death. That force is the spirit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2007 1:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5499 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 103 of 165 (437559)
11-30-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
03-16-2006 11:04 AM


Ringo writes:
The soul must be used to be of any value. The sheep will be divided from the goats based on the value of their souls - and the value is based on how well-used their souls are.
Hey, if there’s a God gene maybe there’s a soul gene.
”HM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 104 of 165 (437593)
11-30-2007 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by fred
11-30-2007 2:12 PM


Call it what you like, but there is a difference between life & death.
There's a difference between water and ice, too, and it's the same difference.
"Spirit" has nothing to do with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by fred, posted 11-30-2007 2:12 PM fred has not replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 105 of 165 (446887)
01-07-2008 1:00 PM


Ok. What is the Soul?. I'm sorry to say this, but there is no SOUL.
There is no........ethereal property in man. Proof of this comes from the bible. Since there is no immediate ascention to heaven or Fall to hell upon death, (that belief is completely contrary to what the Bible teaches) there can be no soul. What i like to think of the "Soul" is just "The Breath of God". The same Breath He breathed into Adam. When we die, that leaves us.
Raph

Truth is still Truth, Weather One or a Thousand People believe it.

Replies to this message:
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