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Author | Topic: No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Except that proteins are not puzzles put together by people using pre-cut pieces out of a box. So your analogy is not apt.
"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6082 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
We are all missing the point of discussion here. Assembling a puzzle has nothing to do with a-biogenesis. Here it is the correct information that a person has to either synthesize or assimilate in order to complete the puzzle. What is information? It is similar to the Code in DNA. Prior information is neccessary for any useful activity or function. Is this information DNA? No, DNA is the physical entity which has the information in the form of the sequence of the bases. So, for information, intelligence is necessary. Assembly of DNA also requires intelligence. This intelligence is not physical. It is intangible.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: That is what I was pointing out. I am happy that you agree with me on this. Nonetheless, it is curious since the puzzle was your analogy. But as along as we agree that the analogy is not apt, we can move on. -
quote: A good question indeed, and one that the IDists have not yet been able to answer. -
quote: In what way? -
quote: Perhaps this will make sense when you have told us what information is. As it stands, it is a meaningless sentence. -
quote: Perhaps this will be clear when you have told us what information is. As it stands, this is simply an unsupported statement. -
quote: Actually, DNA is constantly being assembled in my very cells. No intelligence necessary. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6082 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
Very well written excellent assumptions.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Thank you. How about answering the question? What is information, and how does it have the characteristics that you claimed for it?
"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6082 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
Actually, DNA is constantly being assembled in my very cells. No intelligence necessary It sounds like a robot inside the cells. Even if we assume that it is a robot, the robot has to be given the information( by a Software programmer) to assemble the DNA's. Information is not materialistic. You can have a library full of documents. Here the information is in the form of Documents either on paper or microfilm or magnetic material.The form of storage varies. But, it is still the information which is not a physical entity.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
You are not answering the question.
What is information? Give a precise, scientifically useful definition. I do not want an analogy. I want to know precisely what is information, and I want to know how to determine whether a cell contains information. "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Please leave personal comments/accusations out of the discussion.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4111 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
It sounds like a robot inside the cells. Even if we assume that it is a robot, the robot has to be given the information( by a Software programmer) to assemble the DNA's. Information is not materialistic. You can have a library full of documents. Here the information is in the form of Documents either on paper or microfilm or magnetic material.The form of storage varies. But, it is still the information which is not a physical entity
so what is information, is there even an answer to be found or is information like complexity where its obcurity to not answer questions
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6082 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
I want to know how to determine whether a cell contains information .It is very simple. I am not a molecular biologist. Therefore, I cannot give specific details. If i remember correctly at the Louis Pasteur University, they did a classical experiment. They inroduced a modified genetic material into a frog embryo and they made this to synthesize human serum albumin. Frog nnormally does not synthesize human serum albumin. This genetic material had the information. This information was transferred to frog embryo. Frog embryo took the information and processed it. Then, it sysnthesized human serum albumin. If you put in a different gentic information, then you will get a different material. This information was in the form of specific nucleotide sequences. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6082 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
I want to know how to determine whether a cell contains information . We have DNA sequencers available. You can throw in any cellular material. This machine will analyse the nucleotide sequences. The sequence of nucleotide in the DNA is the information. If it is acell, it will have DNA and you can find out the information(nucleotide sequence) It will be combinations of A-G-T-C (A-adenine, G-guanine, T-thymidine, C-Cytosine) If there is no DNA, there will be no information. It is as simple as this.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: That's odd. I could swear that I remember you claiming to be a molecular biologist or a biochemist or something when you first showed up. -
quote: So you claim. Yet it only remains a claim because you cannot give us a precise scientific definition of "information". Since a precise scientific definition of "information" has not been provided, saying that genetic information has information is meaningless. When you try to use "information" in a discussion, you prove nothing. Let us try again: What is information? How does one measure the amount of information in a system? How does one detect the presence of information? "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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inkorrekt Member (Idle past 6082 days) Posts: 382 From: Westminster,CO, USA Joined: |
What is information? You already know this.Do not you? What did you learn in school? Was it pictures, calculations Stories? What did your teachers impart you with?
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
The question isn't if anyone else knows what information is, Inkorrect, but if you know. It is pretty clear to everyone that you don't. If I'm "inkorrect" about that you can have fun showing everyone that I am.
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Percy Member Posts: 22393 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
inkorrekt writes: What is information? You already know this.Do not you? What did you learn in school? Was it pictures, calculations Stories? What did your teachers impart you with? Chiroptera was probably just checking to see if you knew that information has a formal definition. Scientific conceptions of information are Shannon information (see http:///DataDropsite/Shannon.pdf). Creationists like William Dembski, Werner Gitt and Lee Spetner have suggested their own alternative definitions of information that haven't found acceptance within the scientific community. What I think Chiroptera is trying to point out is that before you can make claims about creating information or whether it increases or decreases you first have to have a formal definition of information that permits you to measure it. Otherwise you have no way to answer questions like, "Which genome has more information, the chimp or the human?" --Percy
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