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Author Topic:   NEPHILIM mYsteries
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 16 of 134 (307875)
04-30-2006 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by arachnophilia
04-29-2006 4:44 PM


Hey Arach:)

I dont have much time now (going to Church)But I can give a few reasons.

1.(using scripture to understand scripture)Identification with Nephilim as huge in Numbers 13:33 (more properly "descendants of the Nephilim)

2. THe septuagint using the word "Gigantes" to describe the Nephilim (Gigantes was a race of supernatural giants in Greek mythology who made war with the gods)

3. Ancient Jewish and Christian interpretation (Josephus, though, seems to describe them as people of unnatural strength, not unnatural size, kind of like Hercules and Gilgamesh)

4. The description of the anakites (descendants of Nephilim) as "Rephaim" which means "mighty", "Ghost" "Dweller of the underworld" (see Alter) and "Giant". When seeing the deiptions of the anakites as tall and making the Hebrews look like "Grasshoppers" it seems to lean towards the giant meaning (Though Alter seems to combine the supernatural aspects of "Rephaim" with the giant meaning, thus making them legendary creatures, which is kind of neat)

I'll quote Bible verses later, but I'll reinterate my views for discussion:

1. Nephilim where angel/human hybrid giants who lived before and after the flood.

2. The sons of God where angels or another kind of supernatural being.

3. A giant race of humans not only is possible, but has actually occured (we'll discuss Meganthropus (which I believe is no longer taken as a true taxon) Homo Heidelbergensis, Gigantopithecus, Legends of giants,and other various ideas to bring into conversation.)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
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CK
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 17 of 134 (307876)
04-30-2006 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by LudoRephaim
04-30-2006 9:02 AM


A very quick question (physics/biological apporoach)
I know we are trying to limit the people in this debate - so I am going to pose one very quick question, then a response to the answer (and maybe a further question of clarification) and then bow out to allow other people to take their licks.

How tall are you suggesting the Nephilim are?

(so I'm really asking "how tall is a giant?")

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 30-Apr-2006 09:09 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-30-2006 9:02 AM LudoRephaim has responded

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CK
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 18 of 134 (307877)
04-30-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by CK
04-30-2006 9:08 AM


reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
OK - This site:

http://www.bibleprobe.com/blog/?cat=13

seems to suggest that they could be up-to 25 feet tall. This causes a problem with the squared cube law*.

If we double a man's size, his muscle power will increase four times but his weight will increase eight times. Therefore his strength is halved. In addition, his leg bones will only increase by the square of his height but his weight will increase by the cube.

What does that mean for a practical example?

If we take a 6ft man who weights 200lbs and can lift 100lbs, if we factor him upto 12ft, then his weight goes to 1,600lbs but his strength only goes to 400lbs. Snaps goes his legs......

And if we double again.....

* I'll proceed on the basis that you understand the squared cube law and don't need a detailed explanation of it.

(A more detailed explanation of this problem can be found in (of all places) "The science of Superheros" by Gresh and Weinberg).

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 30-Apr-2006 09:29 AM


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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 19 of 134 (307937)
04-30-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by CK
04-30-2006 9:27 AM


Re: reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
OK - This site:

http://www.bibleprobe.com/blog/?cat=13

seems to suggest that they could be up-to 25 feet tall. This causes a problem with the squared cube law*.

I was going to post something similar, that there is an upper limit to the size of a human in this gravitational field. This upper limit appears to be under 10 feet for practical purposes, such as continuing to exist. The human form, or design if you will, can't function beyond a certian size. Simply scaling up, the heart would fail and the bones would break under the weight. My understanding is that the tallest person in recorded history, at 8 ft. 11 in., toward the end of this life could no longer walk and had circulation problems so severe that it contributed to his early death at 22.

This is why the largest animals, such as elephants today, or the largest herbiverous dinosaurs of the past, had legs that looked like tree trunks, it was needed to support the weight. There is an upper limit to even this near-optimal design for large size in this gravitational field.

So, sorry, according to physics there can be no Godzilla, King Kong, Attack of the 50 Foot Woman, or even 25 foot giant humans on this planet.


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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 20 of 134 (307941)
04-30-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by CK
04-30-2006 9:27 AM


Re: reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
Hey Charles Knight :)

I knew about square cude law or scaling. It's amazing that if you where to increase an ant's size to that of a person, it would not only be unable to lift 50 times it's own weight (as normal sized ants do) but it would possibly collapse into goo! I read a site on "stupid movie physics" where it stated that King Kong would not only have nowhere near the "relative" or "Poportional" strength as that of a 400 pound Silverback Gorilla (Which are strong enough to lift two cars) but it also wouldn't move as fast or fight as well as in the movie. Now looking into it Biologically, an ape the size of Kong (24 feet tall at the shoulder when on all fours) is not impossible, but it's bones would have to be much more robust to handle so much weight. If it ran fast like the movie Kong, it would crumple. And it would definitely be much stronger than a Gorilla who was sacled up in poportion due to the squared cube law (This Gorilla would look far more robust in poportion to the Kong of the movie or a normal silverback Gorilla), due to it's evolving slowly over time and developing biological adaptions to such a huge size. It still wouldn't have the relative strength of a 400 pound silverback, but it would be strong enough to rip a normal sized T rex apart (The T rexes in the latest movie are are "V-rex's" a made up dinosaur that was probably in the neighborhood of 20-60 tons)I'll give a link to the websites which has this and other info.

I doubt that there where ever humans or human-like creatures that stood 25 feet tall. Such stories where probably based on ancient fossil finds of mamoth or dinosaur bones, as well as elephant or mamoth fossil skeletons that where reconstructed to resemble humans. The giants i am thinking about are more in the 7-9 foot range, though above ten feet tall is not unlikely (provided that their ancestors in the past had changed over time to be so huge and had biologically adapted to such a huge size. Otherwise he/she wouldn't have been able to function well)

I often do experiments to see how large certain creatures would be if I scaled them up according to the sqared cube law. I've used my dog more often than not.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 21 of 134 (307944)
04-30-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by CK
04-30-2006 9:08 AM


Re: A very quick question (physics/biological apporoach)
BTW: I dont know for sure how large the pre-flood Nephilim where, though that has not stopped people from trying. I would give a guess of 7-9 feet tall. If the average people fo that time where around five or even 4 feet tall, the Nephilim would probably have been maybe above 6 feet tall or around it. POssibly Homo Heidelbergensis, though that is pure speculation (I dont think that Heidelbergs and atomically modern humans lived at the same time. Though Heidelbergs are the "giants" of fossil humans, hence they are given the nickname "Goliaths")


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by CK, posted 04-30-2006 9:08 AM CK has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 22 of 134 (307950)
04-30-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by anglagard
04-30-2006 2:01 PM


Re: reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
Hey anglagard :)

That is a good point about the gravitational field. If humans are just scaled up, they wouldn't probably survive at such a size. But then again if they had certain biological changes (knuckle walking, Giraffe like neck, something like that) then maybe it could work, though they wouldn't be Human. Or maybe they would be a different typ of hominid if the change isn't too severe, though it wouldn't be of the same species as modern humans.

Now there where bipedal giant dinosaurs that reach well over 10 feet tall (T rex, Giganotosaurus, MApusaurus, Spinosaurus, etc) and some of the Giant sauropod dinosaurs coulde stand on their back legs (Apatosaurus, etc) though none of these animals walked fully erect, especially the sauropods LOL. Now there is a dinosaur called "Therizinosaurus" that was around 20 feet tall abd stood sortof fully erect. And the Giant Ground sloths made it over 10 feet tall. But neither of these animals looked anything like a human LOL. But it is probably biologically/evolutionarily possible that humans could become Giants that would stand over 10 feet tall, possibly 20 feet tall. But they would probably have to look far, far, far different from modern humans to reach 20 feet tall.

BTW: Robert Wadlow (The "Alton Giant") was indeed having trouble with circulation in his legs, though I doubt he couldn't walk, Though he did use a cane once in a while. He died after getting an infection from a cut in his legs, caused by his leg braces. He didn't have any feeling in his legs, so he couldn't feet the braces cutting into him :(


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 23 of 134 (308026)
04-30-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by LudoRephaim
04-30-2006 9:02 AM


1.(using scripture to understand scripture)Identification with Nephilim as huge in Numbers 13:33 (more properly "descendants of the Nephilim)

the nephilim, sons of someone, descendents of the nephilim. it say the hebrews in question were "as grasshoppers in their sight." that could me anything -- especially since grasshoppers are usually associated with their pest qualities than their size properties.

2. THe septuagint using the word "Gigantes" to describe the Nephilim (Gigantes was a race of supernatural giants in Greek mythology who made war with the gods)

perhaps the emphasis should be on "war with the gods" and not "giants." in the book of enoch, the nephilim terrorize mankind, and so azazel teaches mankind to make weapons. to fix the problem, god floods the world.

this is of course a later interpretation -- at best it means that there is a tradition that the nephilim were giant. but there's all kinds of other traditions too, and we don't accept them all as biblical.

4. The description of the anakites (descendants of Nephilim) as "Rephaim" which means "mighty", "Ghost" "Dweller of the underworld" (see Alter) and "Giant". When seeing the deiptions of the anakites as tall and making the Hebrews look like "Grasshoppers" it seems to lean towards the giant meaning (Though Alter seems to combine the supernatural aspects of "Rephaim" with the giant meaning, thus making them legendary creatures, which is kind of neat)

i looked in to rephaim a bit yesterday. you'll find that it's usually translated one of two ways: "giants" or as a proper noun; the name of a group of people. you'll also see that many of the "giant" translations work better as the names of people.

now, the legend does seem to be that the rephaim are descended from the nephilim, and the nephilim (and rephaim) are legendary. otherwise, well, we wouldn't be talking about them. genesis 6 calls the nephilim mighty men, heroes of old.

so a good comparison to greek myth would probably be heracles. he was half man, half divine, and a mighty man of old. he wasn't a giant, but he probably wasn't puny either.

1. Nephilim where angel/human hybrid giants who lived before and after the flood.

this relies entirely on the next point:

2. The sons of God where angels or another kind of supernatural being.

if the sons of god are angelic/divine/whatever, then the nephilim MUST BE human-angel hybrids. i'm relatively willing to accept, for the purposes of debate, that the sons of god are divine. (i like to argue against it for fun, but someone brought up a decent point for it)

3. A giant race of humans not only is possible, but has actually occured (we'll discuss Meganthropus (which I believe is no longer taken as a true taxon) Homo Heidelbergensis, Gigantopithecus, Legends of giants,and other various ideas to bring into conversation.)

let's get to this later. i suspect there's more than one creationist pratt in here, but let's determine what the bible says first. if it's not talking about giants, than evidence of giants (no matter how true) does not support the claim.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-30-2006 9:02 AM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 24 of 134 (308226)
05-01-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by arachnophilia
04-30-2006 6:38 PM


The "grasshopper" comment does indeed mean size difference. Grasshoppers where eaten in ancient times, so the Israelite spies where suggesting that they wouldn't make a mouthful for the anakites. We use animals to describe size difference today (you "shrimp", or "he's an Ox")and grasshoppers where used to describe the vast numbers of an army in ancient liturature (See "IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, page 151)

The link to the Gigantes might also be an emphasis on their hybrid nature. The Gigantes where gigantic humans from the head to the waist, and below they where serpent like. They where formed in a "union of Heaven and Earth (Sky god, Earth Goddess). The Nephilim where formed in a union of angels and human women (heaven and Earth)which makes them angel human hybrids.

Now Hercules was shown in sculpture as a big and muscular beared guy, though not a true giant. It is possible that the pre-flood Nephilim where like mighty heroes, though they could also have been gigantic as the post-flood Nephilim where (Often the Anaktes are called "Rephaim" (giants) and said to be very tall, and where often singled out among other tall peoples as quite frightening (Numbers 13:28, 31-33, Deuteronomy 1:28, 2:10-11, 20-21) Even Robert Alter confirms that they where giants, and even translates "anakites" as "Giants" (see pages 746-748 of "The Five Books of Moses: a Translation with Commentary")

Arachnophilia writes:

Lets get into this later

Aww come'on! That's one of the best parts! Even if the Nephilim where not giants, it could still be good for discussion.

BTW: Creationist Pratt. was this an insult?


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 25 of 134 (308228)
05-01-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by LudoRephaim
05-01-2006 12:52 PM


you..you... PRATT
quote:
BTW: Creationist Pratt. was this an insult?

I doubt it was intended as such - it means Point Refutted A Thousand Times.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-01-2006 12:52 PM LudoRephaim has responded

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 26 of 134 (308231)
05-01-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by CK
05-01-2006 1:16 PM


Re: you..you... PRATT
Oh, ok. Thanks Charles Knight :)

BTW: Something puzzles me. Based on the squared cube law, we really cant get 12 foot tall giant anatomically modern homo sapiens. But how do certain animals achieve even greater growth without falling into trouble with this law? Argentinosaurus for example, was 110 tons and 127 feet long. Yet when it hatched, it was in an egg the size of a soccer ball or basketball. They grew from a baby into a fully grown adult in a relatively short time, and far more than twice as tall and 8 times as heavy as they where when they where born.I can understand it happening before birth (when everything biologically is still forming) but after it is born, how can animals like Argentinosaurus defy the squared cube law? Is it on par with how animals over time developed biological changes to adapt to the size they are growing into? Just curious


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
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 Message 25 by CK, posted 05-01-2006 1:16 PM CK has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 27 of 134 (308272)
05-01-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by anglagard
04-30-2006 2:01 PM


Re: reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
BTW: There is a report by the ancient Jewish Historian Josephus of a Jew Named Eleazar who reached "7 cubits tall" ("Antquities of the Jews", book 18:4, line 103 (see "Josephus: the Complete works" by William Whiston, pages 579-580). If they where using the "common" cubit (about 18 inches) he would be 10 feet 6 inches tall (good grief!)I believe that another Historian also talked about this fellow, and he seems to have ben a contemporary of Jesus and Pontius Pilate (early 1st Century. Read chapters 3 and four of book 18 in the antiquities for context).

If he indeed reach beyond the ten foot mark (though there is no way of porving it scientifically or medically. No body after all)then maybe humans can reach beyond the ten foot mark. Though if he was that tall he might have not been able to stand (remember that Robert Wadlow, at only eight feet eleven inches tall walked with a cane at times, and needed legs braces. And Eleazar was around 17 inches taller than him!!). If the gravitational limit applies to just under ten feet, either he had biological changes (due to disease more than likely) that allowed him to attain the height, he was bedridden, or maybe his height was exaggerated (I cant confirm or deny that, though we shouldn't jump to conclusions just because his height a little abnormal. One thing to say 10 feet tall, another to say 25.)I'll see if I can come up with the second ancient source.

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-01-2006 05:50 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2006 2:01 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 134 (308349)
05-01-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by LudoRephaim
05-01-2006 12:52 PM


The "grasshopper" comment does indeed mean size difference. Grasshoppers where eaten in ancient times, so the Israelite spies where suggesting that they wouldn't make a mouthful for the anakites. We use animals to describe size difference today (you "shrimp", or "he's an Ox")and grasshoppers where used to describe the vast numbers of an army in ancient liturature (See "IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, page 151)

that doesn't neccessarily mean they were used to describe size then. we lack the cultural context to tell. i suggest that a pestly quality would be just as a good a guess, if not better.

The link to the Gigantes might also be an emphasis on their hybrid nature. The Gigantes where gigantic humans from the head to the waist, and below they where serpent like.

whoa whoa. what? where'd you get that?

Now Hercules was shown in sculpture as a big and muscular beared guy, though not a true giant.

yet the description we have of the nephilim in genesis, ignoring the word "nephilim" which we are questioning the translation of, is:

quote:
Gen 6:4 There were _____ in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

clearly, the description is of legendary ("of renown") heroes ("mighty men").

and where often singled out among other tall peoples as quite frightening (Numbers 13:28, 31-33, Deuteronomy 1:28, 2:10-11, 20-21)

maybe they were just good fighters?

Aww come'on! That's one of the best parts! Even if the Nephilim where not giants, it could still be good for discussion.

sure, but there's no point in discussing it as support for the bible, if the bible doesn't claim any such thing.

BTW: Creationist Pratt. was this an insult?

points refuted a thousand times.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-01-2006 12:52 PM LudoRephaim has responded

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 29 of 134 (308450)
05-02-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
05-01-2006 11:42 PM


Arachnophilia writes:

We lack the cultural context to tell

Not necessarily. The commentary goes into the cultural context. Plus, you have to see how the word is used different times. The army, for example, was said to be like grasshoppers in number. I have not seen a horde of Grasshoppers in real life, though I have seen a horde of Crickets invade my Uncle's house once. Those little crritters where everywhere! My dog was a little puppy back then, and he made short work of some of the little buggars. I guess sometimes animals of that kind (hehe play on words)will mass in great number if the oppritunity arises. I'll see if I can find any info on Grasshopper numbers.

NOw when it comes to the Anakites: they are often described as "Tall" and "Rephaim" In Deuteronomy chapter 2. They seemed quite exceptional for mention, and when you see them being called "Rephaim" (giants. see Alter)very tall, and then compare to Numbers 13:33 (we seemed like Grasshoppers) then it seems to show that the anakites where indeed gigantic (though gigantic is a relative term. I'm 6 feet tall and about 230 pounds. If I actually discovered a living tribe of Homo floresiensis which where on average 3 feet 3 inch tall, they might consider me a giant.)

Arachnophilia writes:

Whoa, whoa. What? Where did you get that?

"The encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Cotterell, pages 44 (under "Giants" which they where also called)and 76, and "Titans and Olympians: Greek and Roman Myth" by Tony Allan and Sara Maitland (under Barnes & Noble Books, New York)pages 27, 32-35. Notice on page 32 the sculpture of the Giant or Gigantes being bitten by a hound. Notice his legs, which seem serpent like (same picture in "the Encyclopedia of Mythology" quoted above, page 44).

The "Union" between heaven and earth is kinda gross in this legend. Uranus was castrated by Cronus his son, and his blood fell to the Earth, in Gaia's womb, producing the Gigantes, or Giants, among others (such as Aphrodite, who according to some myths was born when Uranus' sperm from the castration mixed with the foam of the sea. Thus producing Aphrodite (see "Titans and Olympians" page 62)Some different legends about the Gigantes persist (some said that Gaia only generated them to fight Zeus in the war that would be called "The Gigantomachy") though in the other tradition, they still fought Zeus in the Gigantomachy. The centaurs also had a similar origin (a King Ixion mating with what he thought was Hera, but was instead a "cloud" (heaven and Earth) producing the Centaurs, half human half horse monsters with super strength (the hybrid nature again)See "The Encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Cotterell, page 59.

Arachnophilia writes:

Maybe they where just good fighters?

That would be ignoring the evidence in the Bible about their great height, not to mention their linkage to the Rephaim and the Nephilim (both of which seemed to be creatures of the supernatural)

Arachnophilia writes:

Clearly the description is of legendary (of renown)Heroes (mighty men)

The term "mighty men" could also refer to simply their amazing brute strength, though we cant be sure. Alter seems to think that the anakites, like the Nephilim, where a particular type of individual: angel/human hybrid warriors. He does relate them to being giants though (as his translation will show)So it would seem that the Nephilim of the antediluvian world (before the flood)might just have been both mighty semi-supernatural heroes as well as Giants. Though as I said, "Giant" can be a relative term, which depends on the average size of the people who make the claim.

Arachnophilia writes:

Sure, but there's no point in discussing it as support for the Bible, if the Bible doesn't claim such a thing

We dont need to discuss it as support for the Bible. I'm just wanting to discuss if the idea of giant human species or races is possible, whether the Bible says there where or not.

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-02-2006 10:41 AM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 05-01-2006 11:42 PM arachnophilia has responded

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 30 of 134 (309035)
05-04-2006 12:40 PM


scaling!
Here is some more info on squared cube law, and it's relation to giant humans or animals (such as "giant ants")

http://mb-soft.com/public/phys05.html

http://www.ftexploring.com/think/superbugs_p2.html

This is the physics site which talks about King Kong (look up it's section on new Kong Movie)

http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
  
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