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Author Topic:   Where are the arguments? (A Great Discussion between Igor and jar.)
igor_the_hero
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 11 (308083)
04-30-2006 9:01 PM


I am probably suprmemly ignorant on this subject but for all my searching, the only people who seem to argue forcefully against evolution are people who usually only believe in one God and Jesus Christ. Where are all the arguments from the other religions. There are so many different creation stories out there, but it seems like only one is trying to fight to save itself. Forgive me, the Jews do sometimes too. That is only two religions though. The Bible predicts that all these theories against his word would be made. I can not remember the specific verse but it was on by Peter. What I want to know though, is why only people who believe in a single God argue against evolution? I fail to see any arguments from the Musilms, the Hindus, any religion with a creation story. I have only been able to run internet searches through english so I may have missed one.

This message has been edited by AdminJar, 05-01-2006 05:43 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 05-01-2006 8:50 AM igor_the_hero has responded
 Message 5 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 7:08 PM igor_the_hero has responded

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 11 (308171)
05-01-2006 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by igor_the_hero
04-30-2006 9:01 PM


Igor, would you like to discuss this in a format similar to your current discussion with Lithodid_Man? If you I would be happy to promote it and also discuss it with you.


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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by igor_the_hero, posted 04-30-2006 9:01 PM igor_the_hero has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-01-2006 4:01 PM AdminJar has not yet responded

      
    igor_the_hero
    Inactive Member


    Message 3 of 11 (308252)
    05-01-2006 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
    05-01-2006 8:50 AM


    Yes. Thank you.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 05-01-2006 8:50 AM AdminJar has not yet responded

      
    AdminJar
    Inactive Member


    Message 4 of 11 (308297)
    05-01-2006 6:42 PM


    Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 5 of 11 (308305)
    05-01-2006 7:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by igor_the_hero
    04-30-2006 9:01 PM


    Who does oppose Evolution?
    The Biblical Creationist movement is almost entirely an American phenomenon and limited to only a small part of the US Christian Communion. There are other folk, for example Ken Ham is an Australian but he found it better to move his company to the US.

    The current Biblical Creationist movement is really something pretty new and was started by Henry Morris who died just a couple months ago.

    There is the Islamic Harun Yahya movement in Turkey.

    BUT...

    the big thing is that almost all Christian Churches, all the major Christian Churches specifically, see no conflict between Evolution, the Theory of Evolution and Christian beliefs.

    As said in the Clergy Letter Project,

    We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.

    So far the letter has been endorsed by over 10,300 US Christian Clergy, Pastors, Priests, Ministers, Reverends and Theological Professors.

    So what you actually see is that Biblical Creationism is primarily a phenomenon that involves a portion of the US Christian Community but doesn't even represent the view of all US Christians. It's been tried in other areas and has gained some very limited presence in the UK but is pretty much an economic failure everywhere but the US.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by igor_the_hero, posted 04-30-2006 9:01 PM igor_the_hero has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-01-2006 8:29 PM jar has responded

      
    igor_the_hero
    Inactive Member


    Message 6 of 11 (308320)
    05-01-2006 8:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by jar
    05-01-2006 7:08 PM


    Re: Who does oppose Evolution?
    Okay , thank you for the insite. I know that Biblical Creationists argue against Christians saying things like that because they feel it undermines their religion.

    There is the Islamic Harun Yahya movement in Turkey.

    What is this?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 7:08 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 8:45 PM igor_the_hero has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 7 of 11 (308321)
    05-01-2006 8:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by igor_the_hero
    05-01-2006 8:29 PM


    Re: Who does oppose Evolution?
    Harun Yahya is the pen name of a Turkish author who has made a career of opposing the Theory of Evolution. He's not a Biologist or scientist and not necessarily related to any formal religion, more concerned in selling his books, videos and tapes.

    Okay , thank you for the insite. I know that Biblical Creationists argue against Christians saying things like that because they feel it undermines their religion.

    Yes, the Biblical Creationists do feel that way. It's sad and so unnecessary. As a Christian and Creationist who accepts that the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation so far for the reality we observe I can see that all we are learning in the field of Evolution is a glimpse into "How GOD did it."


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-01-2006 8:29 PM igor_the_hero has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-01-2006 8:53 PM jar has responded

      
    igor_the_hero
    Inactive Member


    Message 8 of 11 (308322)
    05-01-2006 8:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by jar
    05-01-2006 8:45 PM


    Re: Who does oppose Evolution?
    I can see that all we are learning in the field of Evolution is a glimpse into "How GOD did it."

    That is where they get really afraid. Because after that is answered there are only two questions left. Why did God do it and can we do it? If the latter is achieved they are afraid that man will claim to be God.Once that happens, it is only a matter of time truly before believers in God are in trouble. Think about it though, if that happens then how can we say that a murderer deserves to go to jail? Sorry, that was really off topic.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 8:45 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 9:11 PM igor_the_hero has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 9 of 11 (308324)
    05-01-2006 9:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by igor_the_hero
    05-01-2006 8:53 PM


    Creating Life.
    Because after that is answered there are only two questions left. Why did God do it and can we do it?

    Until someone talks directly to GOD there's little hope that the first question will be answered, so they have nothing to fear there. The second is pretty close to happening, likely within the next 10 years, almost certainly within the next half century.

    That's called the God of the Gaps theology. Folk that follow the God of the Gaps get concerned everytime we find out that something has a natural cause as opposed to diect divine intervention. At one time it was lightning, and moving the planets and stars and earthquakes and floods. But as we learn more each of those gaps get closed.

    If the latter is achieved they are afraid that man will claim to be God.

    I don't know why anyone would claim to be God. That seems strictly the realm of crazy folk, and there are lots of them out there, but not the realm of reasonable people. When we learned how to make lightning no one declared that they were then God except the usual run of charlatans that were out to con the gullible.

    Once that happens, it is only a matter of time truly before believers in God are in trouble.

    Why? Why would that have anymore effect that discovering what caused lightning?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-01-2006 8:53 PM igor_the_hero has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-01-2006 9:59 PM jar has responded

      
    igor_the_hero
    Inactive Member


    Message 10 of 11 (308333)
    05-01-2006 9:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by jar
    05-01-2006 9:11 PM


    Re: Creating Life.
    Life is one of the biggest mysteries in the world. If it wasn't, we wouldn't spend so much time researching it. God has about 3 areas that none of us can claim to control all at once. Life, the soul (please don't launch into a big discussion about the soul), and the natural forces. Nobody except God can claim to CONTROL those. Lightning is simply one aspect of the natural forces. But if man can create life then he can claim control of it because he knows and can make it. Take the Egypitian Gods. They had one God for every force in the natural world. If they controlled one force they could effectively claim to be a God. It didn't matter if they were wrong that it made them a God. They could still claim it because they didn't know any better. It is like now. If we discover the mystery of life than we have the belief that we can claim to be God. We may be wrong but since when has that ever stopped anyone.

    Why would that have anymore effect that discovering what caused lightning?

    Because after man claims godship then it is only a matter of time before he decides there are no other Gods. Then he will proceed to get rid of them. Man doesn't like to share leadership with anyone else.

    P.S. Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense. I was rushing.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 9:11 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by jar, posted 05-01-2006 11:06 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 11 of 11 (308343)
    05-01-2006 11:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by igor_the_hero
    05-01-2006 9:59 PM


    Re: Creating Life.
    Life is one of the biggest mysteries in the world. If it wasn't, we wouldn't spend so much time researching it.

    If you look at all the research going on, the field of Abiogenesis which is the area of science that researches how life started, is not tiny, it's almost non-existent. We really don't spend either much time or money researching it.

    God has about 3 areas that none of us can claim to control all at once. Life, the soul (please don't launch into a big discussion about the soul), and the natural forces. Nobody except God can claim to CONTROL those.

    Could be and some folk may well believe that. But the soul is something that science will never much even bother with so I guess we can drop that one from the discussion.

    Next let's look at the Natural Forces. There are a few Christians that make claims that God directly controls the Natural Forces, folk like the people on the 700 Club or those that claimed the Tsunami was God taking revenge (but if it was then they God must have been Allah since it seemed to spare the Islamic Mosques) or that Katrina was some punishment from God. But there are also very very many Christians that see such claims as blasphemy.

    So Natural Forces again are only a problem for some subset of Christianity.

    That leaves creating life. well, that's going to happen, and happen soon. But that does not make man God. It doesn't even tell us exactly how life began originally. It just tells us that it is possible to change inorganic stuff into organic.

    It is like now. If we discover the mystery of life than we have the belief that we can claim to be God.

    Again, why? The fact that we know what causes earthquakes doesn't make anyone think they are God. The fact that we know what causes lightning or tornados or floods or stars or tsunamis doesn't make anyone claim they are God. Why would creating life be any different?


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by igor_the_hero, posted 05-01-2006 9:59 PM igor_the_hero has not yet responded

      
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