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Author Topic:   NEPHILIM mYsteries
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 26 of 134 (308231)
05-01-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by CK
05-01-2006 1:16 PM


Re: you..you... PRATT
Oh, ok. Thanks Charles Knight :)

BTW: Something puzzles me. Based on the squared cube law, we really cant get 12 foot tall giant anatomically modern homo sapiens. But how do certain animals achieve even greater growth without falling into trouble with this law? Argentinosaurus for example, was 110 tons and 127 feet long. Yet when it hatched, it was in an egg the size of a soccer ball or basketball. They grew from a baby into a fully grown adult in a relatively short time, and far more than twice as tall and 8 times as heavy as they where when they where born.I can understand it happening before birth (when everything biologically is still forming) but after it is born, how can animals like Argentinosaurus defy the squared cube law? Is it on par with how animals over time developed biological changes to adapt to the size they are growing into? Just curious


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 05-01-2006 1:16 PM CK has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 27 of 134 (308272)
05-01-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by anglagard
04-30-2006 2:01 PM


Re: reply to myself (physics/biological apporoach)
BTW: There is a report by the ancient Jewish Historian Josephus of a Jew Named Eleazar who reached "7 cubits tall" ("Antquities of the Jews", book 18:4, line 103 (see "Josephus: the Complete works" by William Whiston, pages 579-580). If they where using the "common" cubit (about 18 inches) he would be 10 feet 6 inches tall (good grief!)I believe that another Historian also talked about this fellow, and he seems to have ben a contemporary of Jesus and Pontius Pilate (early 1st Century. Read chapters 3 and four of book 18 in the antiquities for context).

If he indeed reach beyond the ten foot mark (though there is no way of porving it scientifically or medically. No body after all)then maybe humans can reach beyond the ten foot mark. Though if he was that tall he might have not been able to stand (remember that Robert Wadlow, at only eight feet eleven inches tall walked with a cane at times, and needed legs braces. And Eleazar was around 17 inches taller than him!!). If the gravitational limit applies to just under ten feet, either he had biological changes (due to disease more than likely) that allowed him to attain the height, he was bedridden, or maybe his height was exaggerated (I cant confirm or deny that, though we shouldn't jump to conclusions just because his height a little abnormal. One thing to say 10 feet tall, another to say 25.)I'll see if I can come up with the second ancient source.

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-01-2006 05:50 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by anglagard, posted 04-30-2006 2:01 PM anglagard has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 29 of 134 (308450)
05-02-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
05-01-2006 11:42 PM


Arachnophilia writes:

We lack the cultural context to tell

Not necessarily. The commentary goes into the cultural context. Plus, you have to see how the word is used different times. The army, for example, was said to be like grasshoppers in number. I have not seen a horde of Grasshoppers in real life, though I have seen a horde of Crickets invade my Uncle's house once. Those little crritters where everywhere! My dog was a little puppy back then, and he made short work of some of the little buggars. I guess sometimes animals of that kind (hehe play on words)will mass in great number if the oppritunity arises. I'll see if I can find any info on Grasshopper numbers.

NOw when it comes to the Anakites: they are often described as "Tall" and "Rephaim" In Deuteronomy chapter 2. They seemed quite exceptional for mention, and when you see them being called "Rephaim" (giants. see Alter)very tall, and then compare to Numbers 13:33 (we seemed like Grasshoppers) then it seems to show that the anakites where indeed gigantic (though gigantic is a relative term. I'm 6 feet tall and about 230 pounds. If I actually discovered a living tribe of Homo floresiensis which where on average 3 feet 3 inch tall, they might consider me a giant.)

Arachnophilia writes:

Whoa, whoa. What? Where did you get that?

"The encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Cotterell, pages 44 (under "Giants" which they where also called)and 76, and "Titans and Olympians: Greek and Roman Myth" by Tony Allan and Sara Maitland (under Barnes & Noble Books, New York)pages 27, 32-35. Notice on page 32 the sculpture of the Giant or Gigantes being bitten by a hound. Notice his legs, which seem serpent like (same picture in "the Encyclopedia of Mythology" quoted above, page 44).

The "Union" between heaven and earth is kinda gross in this legend. Uranus was castrated by Cronus his son, and his blood fell to the Earth, in Gaia's womb, producing the Gigantes, or Giants, among others (such as Aphrodite, who according to some myths was born when Uranus' sperm from the castration mixed with the foam of the sea. Thus producing Aphrodite (see "Titans and Olympians" page 62)Some different legends about the Gigantes persist (some said that Gaia only generated them to fight Zeus in the war that would be called "The Gigantomachy") though in the other tradition, they still fought Zeus in the Gigantomachy. The centaurs also had a similar origin (a King Ixion mating with what he thought was Hera, but was instead a "cloud" (heaven and Earth) producing the Centaurs, half human half horse monsters with super strength (the hybrid nature again)See "The Encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Cotterell, page 59.

Arachnophilia writes:

Maybe they where just good fighters?

That would be ignoring the evidence in the Bible about their great height, not to mention their linkage to the Rephaim and the Nephilim (both of which seemed to be creatures of the supernatural)

Arachnophilia writes:

Clearly the description is of legendary (of renown)Heroes (mighty men)

The term "mighty men" could also refer to simply their amazing brute strength, though we cant be sure. Alter seems to think that the anakites, like the Nephilim, where a particular type of individual: angel/human hybrid warriors. He does relate them to being giants though (as his translation will show)So it would seem that the Nephilim of the antediluvian world (before the flood)might just have been both mighty semi-supernatural heroes as well as Giants. Though as I said, "Giant" can be a relative term, which depends on the average size of the people who make the claim.

Arachnophilia writes:

Sure, but there's no point in discussing it as support for the Bible, if the Bible doesn't claim such a thing

We dont need to discuss it as support for the Bible. I'm just wanting to discuss if the idea of giant human species or races is possible, whether the Bible says there where or not.

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-02-2006 10:41 AM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 05-01-2006 11:42 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by arachnophilia, posted 05-07-2006 1:53 AM LudoRephaim has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 30 of 134 (309035)
05-04-2006 12:40 PM


scaling!
Here is some more info on squared cube law, and it's relation to giant humans or animals (such as "giant ants")

http://mb-soft.com/public/phys05.html

http://www.ftexploring.com/think/superbugs_p2.html

This is the physics site which talks about King Kong (look up it's section on new Kong Movie)

http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 31 of 134 (309039)
05-04-2006 12:51 PM


Neanderthal...
squared cube law is getting me to thinking...

6 feet tall, 200 pound man who can lift 100 pounds above his head.

doulbe height, multiply weight 8 fold, strength four fold (squared cube law)

12 feet tall, 1600 pounds, can lift only 400 pounds above his head.

Now Neanderthals where far stronger than humans. They could be 3 times stronger than a human (probably stronger)Now:

Neanderthal man: 5 feet 5 inch tall, 200 pounds. Since 200 pound human could lift 200 pounds, 200 pound Neanderthal (3 times the strength)could lift 300 pounds above head.

Double height, multiply weight 8 fold, increase strength by four:

10 feet 10 inches tall, 1600 pounds. Can now lift 1200 pounds! That would be in relative terms 1 1/2 times stronger than 200 pound modern human! If a few biological adaptions are made (especially lungs, as one website I posted in last post will show), this kind of giant could work. And if the muscles are adapted, so that this Giant would have greater strength to muscle ratio, he could lift far more than 1200 pounds.

Just a thought. Interesting though.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 32 of 134 (309041)
05-04-2006 1:03 PM


This sqaured cube law is interesting in that nature seems to beat it. Consider Ursus (Bears): They come in massive sizes (Kodiaks have been known to be in the 1600-1760 pound range, one polar Bear was recorded to have weighed around a tonne (over 2000 lbs)!)and the ice age ones would make them dwarfs (Giant short faced Bear ( Arctodus Simus: 2205 lbs, 5 feet tall at the shoulder, could stand 11 feet tall when on hind legs, 1650 lbs Agriotherium, 1540 lbs European Cave Bear Ursus Spelaeus)Yet all the giant bears of today and the past came from Ursavus a "Dawn Bear" that was around the size of a fox or raccoon (possibly 30 lbs)From 30 pounds to 2205 pounds is far, far, FAR greater increase in size than an eight fold weight increase ie the squared cube law, yet this succeeded over time and numerous generations without the animals collapsing into a gooish heap. If this size difference can happen in animals like this (and dogs) then it should be quite possibl for humans to grow to a "giant" mass of 7 feet tall and 400 pounds on average, maybe up to 9 feet tall and 800 pounds, though anything 10 feet and above would probably have to change biologically to adapt to vast sizes like that to where a new species of human is born.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 33 of 134 (309046)
05-04-2006 1:14 PM


"The IVP Bible Background Commentary: old Testament" mentions an ancient egyptian letter describing warriors that where 7-9 feet tall that where in Canaan. It also mentions two female skeletons dug up in the Transjordan region that where both around 7 feet tall.

I have not heared as of yet a finding of 9 feet tall human remains in Israel or anywhere else that is authentic, though it would be facinating to find. And 7 feet tall is quite impressive, especially to the Israelites, who where around 5 feet 7 inches tall on average. I be back and tell you the source to this info.

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-04-2006 01:31 PM

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-04-2006 01:32 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 34 of 134 (309052)
05-04-2006 1:31 PM


This is the source for the average height of the ancient Israelites (Illustrated manners and custooms of the Bible, by J.I. Packer and M.C. Tenney, pages 450-451. It seems to show that not only was the average height of the hebrews 5'3-5'7, but that the average cananite was also of average height (though the Anakites where not average Canaanites, but legendary giants (see Alter)

A race of 6 foot tall humans could be seen as quite huge to the small israelites. 7-9 feet tall...


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 35 of 134 (309053)
05-04-2006 1:39 PM


It seems odd that many people dont realize that there was a Jewish Giant in the Bible: King Saul.

He is described as "head and shoulders" taller than any other Jew at the time (1 Sam 10:23)Now if the average height for Jews at the time where 5'3 to 5'7, and since a really large Jew could have been around 6 feet tall, it is estimated that King Saul may have ben 6 feet 6 inches tall to 7 feet tall ("The Victor Journey through the Bible" By V. Gilbert Veers, page 109.)

Strangely, this is around the same height of the Philistine Giant Goliath given By The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint (4 cubits and a span: 6 feet 6 to 6 feet 9!) If the older height of Goliath is taken to account, Saul seems to have been around the same size (possibly taller)yet even he was frightened at the sight of Goliath (1st Sam 17:11)and King Saul was no pushover: David described him as swifter than eagles and stronger than lions (2nd Sam 1:23)Yet he didn't seem to want to fight Goliath.

It is possible that the measure of Goliath's height in the Septuagint and the Dead sea scrolls was based on the greek cubit, which was 21:6 inches. Thus Goliath could have been 7 feet 8 to 7 feet 11 inches tall. Seems to be more frightening to Saul if he was this massive.

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-04-2006 01:46 PM

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-04-2006 01:54 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 36 of 134 (309057)
05-04-2006 1:53 PM


There was a dude who came foward with a theory that Goliath reached such great height (Masoretic text: 9 feet 9) due to acromegaly, which can cause gigantism (Robert Wadlow, WWF legend Andre the Giant)If so, he stated that Goliath had tunnel vision, making him easy prey for David. Another dude said the same thing, and made the claim that Goliath, due to the disease, would have been abnormally weak and sweaty. I'll post a link, but you should google "Goliath+Acromegaly" to find it.

The idea that Goliath would be abnormally weak seems faulty though, considering that Goliath is described in the Bible as a warrior from his youth, as well as the fact that several people with Gigantism have displayed enormous strength (Paul Wight (aka wrestlers: Andre the Giant, Paul wight aka Big Show, and the Great Khali, each of which are around the 7 foot 400-500 lbs range)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 37 of 134 (309059)
05-04-2006 1:59 PM


GIGANTO ape
And of course species of great ape have been known to have been gigantic: Gigantopithecus an ape believed by some (such as the late anthropologist Grover Krantz) to have been the legendary Bigfoot, was possibly 10 feet tall and weighed 600-1200 lbs, depeding on the source you read.

There is still a debate on whether Gigantopithecus walked upright like a man or knuckle walked like a modern ape (Gorilla)though either way that's one big'ol boy LOL.

If it walked upright (supposidly the jaws of Gigantopithecus are built more for a human like body posture than a knuckle walking Gorilla) it could give evidence that upright primates (ie humans) could one day become...Gigantic. Though if we would still be human or another species of human is another guess.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 38 of 134 (309061)
05-04-2006 2:07 PM


BTW: When discussing if Giant humans races could be sceintifically possible, I will not invoke the supernatural. You could with the Nephilim (half angel after all) but when discussing the biological and physical possiblility of giant human species or races, I will use and only use scientific arguments.

Discussing giant humans scientifically is very interesting, and fun :)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-04-2006 5:02 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 39 of 134 (309063)
05-04-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AdminJar
04-29-2006 4:24 PM


Re: Okay, moving
Amidjar? I would like this forum to be open to just a few more people. Could it be opened to other forum members? Tow heads are better than one, but multiple heads rule :) If possible, i would invite Nosyned, Jar, Faith, and another creo if possible.

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-04-2006 02:12 PM

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-04-2006 02:14 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by AdminJar, posted 04-29-2006 4:24 PM AdminJar has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 40 of 134 (309066)
05-04-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AdminJar
04-29-2006 4:24 PM


Re: Okay, moving
Chiropetra and Buzzsaw would be good to.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by AdminJar, posted 04-29-2006 4:24 PM AdminJar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by AdminJar, posted 05-04-2006 2:37 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 42 of 134 (309070)
05-04-2006 2:39 PM


Meganthro?
Now there was a species of Homo Erectus, called Homo Erectus Meganthropus that was believed to have been a race of giant proto humans. A wikipedia article made their height and weight gigantic (9 feet tall and 750-1000 lbs!) though that article was artlered, and seemed to show that Meganthropus was not a giant, but super robust (built like a sherman tank LOL)One fossil skull I believe of Meganthropus seemed to hint at a incredible size, though it may just have been that one individual. I'll get the source.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 2:49 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
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