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Author Topic:   flying spaghetti monster flap in kansas
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 76 of 148 (309440)
05-05-2006 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by crashfrog
05-05-2006 2:46 PM


The non-existence of milk
Parasomnium writes:
Logically there can be no evidence of the absence of anything.
crashfrog writes:
Then how do you know when to buy milk when you're at the store?
I should have said of course that there can be no evidence that something does not exist. I mistakenly equivocated 'absence' with 'non-existence'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 2:46 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 5:30 PM Parasomnium has replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5176 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 77 of 148 (309441)
05-05-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by GDR
05-05-2006 3:39 PM


Re: Accidents
So do I. I just view evolution as the designer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 3:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 4:03 PM EZscience has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 78 of 148 (309446)
05-05-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Parasomnium
05-05-2006 3:41 PM


Re: Accidents
parasomnium writes:
The problem is that, in principle I can never definitely prove the non-existence of anything. Logic doesn't allow it. On the other hand, again in principle, you might be able to prove the existence of the metaphysical. Science perhaps precludes it, but logic does not. If it exists, logic permits its provability.
But we have no way of testing by empirical means the metaphysical. As to whether it exists or not we are logically back to a philosphical/theological question. If you have no way of scientifically testing the metaphysical then either conclusion is logical.
parasomnium writes:
Silly? How? Could you please explain that?
Your suggestion that a pink unicorn as a creator is as logical as the idea that there is intelligence behind the universe is silly.
I've gotta run

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 3:41 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 4:44 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 79 of 148 (309447)
05-05-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by EZscience
05-05-2006 3:44 PM


Re: Accidents
EZScience writes:
So do I. I just view evolution as the designer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by EZscience, posted 05-05-2006 3:44 PM EZscience has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 80 of 148 (309462)
05-05-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by GDR
05-05-2006 4:01 PM


Re: Accidents
GDR writes:
If you have no way of scientifically testing the metaphysical then either conclusion is logical.
I take it that by "either conclusion", you mean the conclusions "the metaphysical exists" and "the metaphysical does not exist".
Well, if you have no way of scientifically testing the metaphysical, then neither of those conclusions is logical. The only valid logical conclusion would be: "the existence of the metaphysical is uncertain". The pragmatical consequence would be: "there's no reason to assume the existence of the metaphysical".
But that's just nitpicking on my part.
Your suggestion that a pink unicorn as a creator is as logical as the idea that there is intelligence behind the universe is silly.
But I never suggested that. The reasoning was about there being no evidence supporting the notion that there is no intelligence behind our existence. You implied that this warranted the possibility of said intelligence. I merely pointed out that if that's true, then it also warrants the possibility of the IPU. The reasoning for both is equivalent. So, the conclusion must be that if you find the reasoning for the IPU silly, then you must find the same reasoning for intelligence equally silly.
This has nothing to do with the understandable urge, after seeing so much complex design in nature, to conclude an intelligent designer. It's all about a logical fallacy.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 4:01 PM GDR has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 81 of 148 (309469)
05-05-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Parasomnium
05-05-2006 3:42 PM


Re: The non-existence of milk
I should have said of course that there can be no evidence that something does not exist. I mistakenly equivocated 'absence' with 'non-existence'.
I still don't see how you know when to buy milk. How do you prove that the milk doesn't exist in your fridge?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 3:42 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 6:05 PM crashfrog has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 148 (309474)
05-05-2006 5:35 PM


I don't get this. Is the flying spaghetti monster just supposed to be another name for god in the sense of the creator? If not, isn't this monster a different kind of entity--an extraneous entity?
That's not the same sort of entity as the concept of God, is it?

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 5:42 PM robinrohan has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 148 (309476)
05-05-2006 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by robinrohan
05-05-2006 5:35 PM


That's not the same sort of entity as the concept of God, is it?
No, they're nothing alike. Your ridiculous "God" is made of "spirit" or some nonexistent nonsense; the FSM is made of pasta, which we all know actually exists.
There's actually evidence for the FSM, but none for your so-called "God."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by robinrohan, posted 05-05-2006 5:35 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by robinrohan, posted 05-05-2006 5:45 PM crashfrog has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 148 (309477)
05-05-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by crashfrog
05-05-2006 5:42 PM


There's actually evidence for the FSM, but none for your so-called "God."
It's not my god, but anyway, what would be the purported reason for our thinking that the monster existed? What did the monster do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 5:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 5:56 PM robinrohan has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 148 (309480)
05-05-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by robinrohan
05-05-2006 5:45 PM


It's not my god, but anyway, what would be the purported reason for our thinking that the monster existed?
If there's no such thing as the FSM, then where did all this spaghetti and meatballs come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by robinrohan, posted 05-05-2006 5:45 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by robinrohan, posted 05-05-2006 6:03 PM crashfrog has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 148 (309482)
05-05-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
05-05-2006 5:56 PM


If there's no such thing as the FSM, then where did all this spaghetti and meatballs come from?
I wonder if they said that in the letter.
But anyway, I'm trying to figure out if, logically, that's the same type of question as, "Where did the universe come from?"
Do you think it's the same? Don't you think there's a different degree of certainty as regards this question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 5:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 87 of 148 (309483)
05-05-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
05-05-2006 5:30 PM


Re: The non-existence of milk
crashfrog writes:
I still don't see how you know when to buy milk. How do you prove that the milk doesn't exist in your fridge?
The problem is not about proving that there is no milk in my fridge, it is about proving that there exists no milk at all, anywhere.
I can vaporize my fridge wholesale and analyse the vapor using gas chromatography. If I find no traces of the atoms that make up milk, then I conclude there was no milk in my fridge. In principle, I can prove it.
I cannot logically prove that milk does not exist at all.
The impracticability is also a factor: I cannot vaporise the universe. And even if I could, I'd have vaporised the gas chromatography equipment as well. Not to mention myself.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 5:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2006 7:24 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 5:52 PM Parasomnium has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 88 of 148 (309495)
05-05-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Parasomnium
05-05-2006 6:05 PM


Re: The non-existence of milk
I can vaporize my fridge wholesale and analyse the vapor using gas chromatography. If I find no traces of the atoms that make up milk, then I conclude there was no milk in my fridge. In principle, I can prove it.
If you can't have evidence of something not existing, how would that prove there was no milk in your fridge?
I cannot logically prove that milk does not exist at all.
What you're saying is, if you examine every space within your fridge large enough to contain some milk, and you don't find any milk in any of them, you can conclude that you don't have any milk in your fridge - even though you didn't look in the freezer, or inside each orange, or in the seal strip, or under the lid of the jar of pickles.
In other words, it's sufficient to look in all the places where you would reasonably expect milk to be to prove that there is no milk in your fridge at all. Right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 6:05 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Funkaloyd, posted 05-10-2006 8:58 AM crashfrog has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4132 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 89 of 148 (309501)
05-05-2006 7:51 PM


The FSM
I think we just need to give credit where credit is do, namely the creation of midgets pirates and beer
All Hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
Ramian!

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 148 (309775)
05-06-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Parasomnium
05-05-2006 6:05 PM


Re: The non-existence of milk
I cannot logically prove that milk does not exist at all.
Or that the Flood of Noah never happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 6:05 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 05-06-2006 6:20 PM Faith has replied
 Message 111 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 05-09-2006 9:50 PM Faith has not replied

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