The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

Destroy both soul and body - not eternal torment. Again, Gehenna refers to destruction, not torment. No mention of torment, eternal or otherwise. No mention of torment, eternal or otherwise.The topic is "The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment". It is not about whether or not God can "get you" after death. That is not in dispute.The OP states that "Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist." If you disagree with that statement, I would like you to demonstrate that the unrighteous do not just "cease to exist" - i.e. that they suffer "eternal torment". (Sorry if I wasn't clear about what I was asking. )

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This is what you challenged me to demonstrate. And this is what I did demonstrate: And you made no reference to the topic heading, did you?Now if you want me to argue eternal verses temporal, I can do that too. Maybe latter.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 03:47 PM

All these references concern retribution or discipline after death. That is what Ringo challenged me to demonstrate.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 04:01 PM

Now to the "clarified callenge": Notice that the OP does not restrict to the sayings of Jesus as recorded by the gospel writers and exclude comments of the epistles. So the whole Bible should be consulted to ascertain whether or not eternal punishment is Scriptural or whether Annhilation is what is taught.Of course Matthew 25:41 has Christ refering to "eternal fire" prepared for the devil and his angels into which the goat nations depart. And verse 46, refering to the same place, calls it "eternal punishment"Both the "fire" and the "punishment" therefore are eternal and not temporary. Annhilation is a cessation of punishiment.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 04:15 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 04:16 PM

me: Ringo: The parellel verse in Luke 12:,4,5 says "after killing" God is able to inflict further punishment. So the death that would occur by being thrown into the smoldering fire of the physical Gehenna is obviously not the annhilation of the whole human being. The sinner may be killed in a Gehenna trash heap smoldering outside the city. But "after killing" God has the authority to cast into Gehenna.This proves that Christ is using Gehenna to signify something more than the physical city dump where trash was burnt. After any physical killing that might result by dying in such a city dump God can do something further to punish us.Revelation 14:11 says "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name"The point here is that Revelation 14:11 can hardly be mistaken to indicate anything other than perpetual torment. This establishes a class of retribution to which Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4,5 then could conceivably also refer.Revelation 14:11 necessarily makes the possibility of eternal torment within the scope of what Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4,5 say. Namely, after the body has been killed, the person could still suffer a torment which knows no rest forever and ever.

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Then we each have to decide whether we think the words of Jesus are trustworthy and credible. Does He have the kind of approvedness which lends to considering His words as reliable? Do the traits of His character lean toward a foolish man who speaks wild and untrue things amiss? Or is His character win our sense of trust that He speaks knowledgeably, credibly, reliably? Does He have the approvedness as a source of truth or is He more likely to be a deceiver or self deceived?

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Actually we would have to decide whether the words of the writer are trustworthy and credible. Jesus didn't write the story, he supposedly told it. So we really have to ask all those questions about the author and unfortunately we don't know the name of the actual author. These are the real issues and decisions that we are left alone with before God. But this is not the topic.Not sure if you have read the whole thread, but I suggest you read the OP before asking questions that don't add to the discussion.If you feel that the scriptures support eternal torment related to what I stated in the OP, then share the scripture. Punishment is a penalty and the penalty is forever, never to be reversed. Torment is torture. If someone were to endure eternal torment, he would be experiencing it eternally and therefore has eternal life. Not a good eternal life, but continuing eternally none the less.Eternal punishment means that the person ceases to exist, never to be given eternal life. The penalty is eternal not the person life.Eternal torment would mean that all receive eternal life, but some are tortured and others are on streets of gold.If you feel that the teachings of Jesus support eternal torment, then share the verses keeping in mind what I have explained above.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

How long does the process of being destroyed last? 1 second. 0.0000001 second. If it lasts, does that not pre-suppose a concept of eternity which imagines it to be "time elapsing forever". 1 second after the other.From whence the idea that eternity is time elapsing?We know this much. God resides in eternity and an attribute of that is that (elapsing) time as we know it is (perpetually) present to him. He can see our (future) tomorrow as clearly as he (and we can) see our (present)today. Why would eternity (when we get there) not be perpetually present to us too? If I am destroyed, then I am perpetually destroyed. No before destruction, no after destruction. Just perpetual destruction."Exist > Cease to exist" presupposes a before state and an after state. But that is a concept locked in a time environment.

Purpledawn, I will have to agree with this. In considering these things I ask myself "Am I to assume that I alone am a faithful reporter and reliable witness of some significant words?"Is it conceivable that men and women whose lives were significantly impacted by the doings and words of another might have the integrity to pass on to others the things which they knew? Some skeptical types seem to start here:"Probably I would have been more reliable to pass on what Jesus really said and did, IF such a person did exist. My working assumption is that probably these recorders were not as good as I could have been. So probably they messed up the original speeches and miscomunicated what happened. And since that is probably the case we will never have any idea what this Jesus really said or did if He existed at all. Unfortunetly I was not there to do the job of recording it as it really should have been done."I have been persuaded otherwise. I think like this "Here this Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all report some words and acts of this person Jesus. I can't deny that there is a great amount of overlap, but with occasional subtle variations. And occasionally there are words and actions unique to one writer alone which are not paralleled by the others.I think that a conspiracy of these writers to concoct a fictional person and put words in His mouth is unlikely. I may not always be able to tell exactly which version of a saying was the real one. But I wager that probably each recorder was trying within the best of their ability to faithfully pass on what he knew of this person.The gospel writers have won my trust. And the one about whom they write also wins my trust. An intentional conspiracy to deceive or an unintentional occurance of self deception seems much less likely to be the case." Oh, an occasional diversion is permitted. Don't you think? You do it. The Bible's term is "the second death." I don't think this is what I see in the New Testament or in real life. If a person is given a 20 year sentence in prison and he dies after 15 years, his punishment has ceased. He actually suffered for 15 years.The phrase "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night" (Rev. 14:11) does not at all suggest cessation or rest from annhilation. And if it is possible in Revelation 14:11 it is possible that the same thing is meant in other similiar passages. As I said before "eternal life" also meaning eternal perdition may be the philosophical brain child of some people. But the New Testament keeps the two destinies quite seperated and distinct from one another.The term used for eternal perdition is utimately called "the lake of fire" or "the second death". I will. But you will have to realize that I take "the teachings of Jesus" to include the whole New Testament. He continued teaching through the Holy Spirit in the apostles Peter, Paul, John, Jude, James, etc.But if we were to restrict to recorded words attributed to the physical voice of Jesus, the equating of "the eternal fire" with "eternal punishment" (See Matthew 25:41,46) indicate endless torment.And in the same passage clearly eternal punishment is in contrast to eternal life rather than the same thing - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46) Clearly, opposite and mutually opposing destinies are what is being conveyed.Do you disagree with this? Read it again - The possibility of misunderstanding is highly unlikely to the objective reader.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:01 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:04 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:21 PM

Off topic, but: wouldn't that be another increase in consciousness? An improvement, like the knowledge of good and evil?I don't know if that concept of "timeless eternity" can be supported Biblically, and I don't think it would mean anything to us "mere mortals" anyway. "Eternal torment" in a timeless environment sounds very much like no punishment at all."I sentence you to zero years in prison. You'll never get out (because you'll never really be in)".

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I just feel like saying that I'm impressed when I read your posts at your knowledge and the way you approach questions. Good stuff.

Seconded.Although Hell hath no (righteous) fury like a women (of faith) scorned... it must be said.[AbE] Like, you're by no means an uninformative read yourself. My Hero(ine)This message has been edited by iano, 06-May-2006 11:27 PM

That "further punishment" would be the destruction symbolized by Gehenna. The body is destroyed by fire - i.e. does not receive eternal life. I don't think the idea is that the sinner is killed by being thrown into Gehenna. The idea is that after death - from whatever cause, natural or not - the body is "thrown out with the garbage" instead of receiving a "decent burial". The one cast into Gehenna is destroyed, leaving no monument. He is forgotten (hence "perdition").That is the "further punishment".At the risk of going off-topic, think of Ebenezer Scrooge. When he died (in his vision), nobody cared about him. Nobody wanted to go to his funeral (unless lunch was provided). Nobody had a good word for him or a good memory of him, because he had never done any "good works". He was numbered with the goats, not the sheep.The destruction of Gehenna is the perdition of Ebenezer Scrooge.

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Faith, I very much appreciate your word of encouragement. And I seemed to remember benefitting from some posts of yours also.The questions are important. And while I usually don't like to labor on and on about eternal punishment, I'm making an exception this time because those in doubt deserve to have their serious objections addressed if we can.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:31 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:08 PM

Thirded.I've always been impressed by jaywill's knowledge of what the Bible says - though his understanding of what it means leaves something to be desired.

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Ringo, I think one has to really work hard at miscontrueing the INTENT of Luke 12:4,5.These concepts emerge from the passage:1.) There are those who can kill the body. But afterwards they cannot do anything else to harm you.2.) But God can harm you after He has killed your body. Unlike the other folks God had additional "authority" to do more to you.3.) The expression used by Jesus to discribe this post physical death harm is "cast into Gehenna"4.) Since God has this additional "authority" He is to be more feared than those who can only kill the physical body.It is extremly unlikely that Jesus meant that after you have physically died there is an additional fear that your corpse could be thrown into the smoldering Jerusalem city dump and be hurt further.
You may have your corpse thrown into Gehenna city dump. But men have the authority to do that. It doesn't require divine authority. And secondly, if death is the cessation of all possible consciousness, you would not feel a thing if you were so discarded into the burning city compose heap.Therefore I judge that "Gehenna" in this passage is used to refer to a discarding of the immaterial part of man after physical death. After killing God has the authority to trash you for your transgressions. And thusly, God deserves the greater response of fear from human beings.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:26 PM