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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 76 of 300 (309817)
05-06-2006 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
05-06-2006 6:29 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Ringo,
I acknowedge with some gratitude your comment of my knowledge of the Scripture though it turned out a left handed compliment. LOL.
I don't think the idea is that the sinner is killed by being thrown into Gehenna. The idea is that after death - from whatever cause, natural or not - the body is "thrown out with the garbage" instead of receiving a "decent burial". The one cast into Gehenna is destroyed, leaving no monument. He is forgotten (hence "perdition").
That is the "further punishment".
Not likely that this is what Jesus intended to convey.
It does not take additional "authority" from God to discard a corpse into the Jerusalem city dump. And though it may be an indignity, why should a person fear what they cannot possibly be conscious of?
When comedian Bob Hope was asked where he would like to be buried when he died, he replied "Surprise me!"
Of course that is funny from a secular standpoint. He'll have no idea where he's buried, so the humor. Luke 12:4,5, however, is not a laughing matter but a matter of justified fear towards God.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:37 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:38 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 05-06-2006 6:29 PM ringo has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 77 of 300 (309821)
05-06-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
05-06-2006 6:29 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
At the risk of going off-topic, think of Ebenezer Scrooge. When he died (in his vision), nobody cared about him. Nobody wanted to go to his funeral (unless lunch was provided). Nobody had a good word for him or a good memory of him, because he had never done any "good works". He was numbered with the goats, not the sheep.
The destruction of Gehenna is the perdition of Ebenezer Scrooge.
The perdition of the Bible is shame, regret, and torment to go along with it.
Eternal punishment is, you lose, in every imaginable way. In fact the only comfort I could see from the Bible of those condemned to eternal punishment is this - perhaps the comfort of knowing that your loved ones are not in the same place.
I assume this from Luke's gospel. The rich man didn't want his five brothers to end up where he was. I assume that those who perish may have as their only comfort a knowledge that someone they love is not in the same state as they have found themselves.
This is important. If you have a loved one who has perished, the only comfort you may provide to them is that you get saved by Jesus Christ and don't go to the same place of punishment.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 300 (309822)
05-06-2006 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by iano
05-06-2006 6:24 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Although Hell hath no (righteous) fury like a women (of faith) scorned... it must be said.
[AbE] Like, you're by no means an uninformative read yourself. My Hero(ine)
Aw. . . what a sweet . . .
ambiguous
post there Iano. Thanks though. I guess. That righteous fury bit. Yeah, I am a hothead. You'd think I was Irish or something.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2006 07:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 6:24 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 7:55 PM Faith has replied
 Message 80 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 7:59 PM Faith has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 79 of 300 (309823)
05-06-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
05-06-2006 7:49 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Although Hell hath no (righteous) fury like a women (of faith) scorned... it must be said.
I think a better one is
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 7:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 8:05 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 8:05 PM jaywill has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 300 (309824)
05-06-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
05-06-2006 7:49 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Ambiguous? I drop in on yourself and Jay from time to time and find myself trawling backwards and forward from point of entry - with interest/man-sized awe. It may be that we three will be neighbours on 1175/6/7 Cardboard Box Terrace, Way of the Righteous, Heaven.
I've no clue, but if I served Him that much I would be more than eternally content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 7:49 PM Faith has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 81 of 300 (309825)
05-06-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jaywill
05-06-2006 7:55 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
No 1. Satanic court, Boulevard of the Damned, Hell... is is for me then. Thank God for final assurance...
{AbE} Now that you mention it JW, I realise that I don't live by good intentions anymore. I answered out of reflex. Old man reflex.
Sheesh.. I'm still a sinner granted, but I haven't actually thought "good intentions" as a way of living since I don't know when. Gee...
This message has been edited by iano, 07-May-2006 01:21 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 300 (309826)
05-06-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jaywill
05-06-2006 7:55 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Are you talking about me too? I have no idea if anything I write at EvC counts for anything at all in heaven -- I lose track of my motives and get involved in the wrangle just for the wrangle's sake and forget to pray and the works. Not a great record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 7:55 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 8:12 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 85 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 8:15 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 300 (309827)
05-06-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
05-06-2006 8:05 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
I guess I'm just obtuse when it comes to jokes. Carry on guys.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 8:05 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 84 of 300 (309831)
05-06-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
05-06-2006 8:05 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Position in heaven by (your measurement of )works. Sound ropey?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 8:05 PM Faith has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 85 of 300 (309832)
05-06-2006 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
05-06-2006 8:05 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
Faith,
Are you talking about me too? I have no idea if anything I write at EvC counts for anything at all in heaven -- I lose track of my motives and get involved in the wrangle just for the wrangle's sake and forget to pray and the works. Not a great record.
Occasionally, I make mistakes in how I reply. That post was not intended to anyting you wrote. It was aimed at something you quoted.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 08:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 8:05 PM Faith has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 300 (309833)
05-06-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jaywill
05-06-2006 7:24 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
jaywill writes:
You may have your corpse thrown into Gehenna city dump. But men have the authority to do that. It doesn't require divine authority.
Um... that's why I used the phrase "symbolized by Gehenna". When God judges somebody among the goats, He symbolically throws that person out with the garbage. That was what Jesus meant by the reference to the literal garbage dump, Gehenna. God throwing somebody out with the garbage constitutes their destruction, not their "eternal torment".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 7:24 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 10:48 PM ringo has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 87 of 300 (309834)
05-06-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jaywill
05-06-2006 5:58 PM


Punishment or Torment
quote:
The Bible's term is "the second death."
The second death is only mentioned in Revelation, which is a symbolic vision. How does its symbology in Revelation deal with eternal torment?
quote:
I don't think this is what I see in the New Testament or in real life. If a person is given a 20 year sentence in prison and he dies after 15 years, his punishment has ceased. He actually suffered for 15 years.
Not a good analogy since God can raise people from the dead. The resurrection is for the righteous. The unrighteous will be like the criminals burned up in Gehenna. They have no place in the world to come. No resurrection. That is their punishment after death, no eternal life. They cease to exist anywhere. The body is dead and the soul is dead. This penalty is never reversed. There is a difference between punishing a child and tormenting a child.
quote:
The term used for eternal perdition is utimately called "the lake of fire" or "the second death".
I'm not familiar with perdition, so again you will need to explain how the symbology in Revelation deals with this topic.
quote:
But if we were to restrict to recorded words attributed to the physical voice of Jesus, the equating of "the eternal fire" with "eternal punishment" (See Matthew 25:41,46) indicate endless torment.
Punishment and torment are not the same. You haven't shown that they are.
quote:
And in the same passage clearly eternal punishment is in contrast to eternal life rather than the same thing - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46) Clearly, opposite and mutually opposing destinies are what is being conveyed.
Exactly. The righteous go into eternal life and the nonrighteous don't, they cease to exist. That is very opposite eternal life. Life-Death
quote:
Do you disagree with this? Read it again -
"And these will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, ... BUT ... the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE " (Matt. 25:46 my emphasis).

No I don't. But I see no torment. Show me that punishment means torment.
Out of curiosity why do you prefer torment, as opposed to ceasing to exist?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 5:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 8:37 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 92 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 11:02 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 8:38 AM purpledawn has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 88 of 300 (309837)
05-06-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by purpledawn
05-06-2006 8:33 PM


Re: Punishment or Torment
Bump msg 67 in case it gets lost in your "yes" box PurpleDawn. No rush am heading for bed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by purpledawn, posted 05-06-2006 8:33 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 05-06-2006 8:54 PM iano has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 89 of 300 (309839)
05-06-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by iano
05-06-2006 8:37 PM


Clueless
I have no idea what you are saying in Message 67, so unless you can show it is explained or supported in the Bible, I have no answer.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 8:37 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 9:34 PM purpledawn has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 90 of 300 (309845)
05-06-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by purpledawn
05-06-2006 8:54 PM


Clueless
In essence?
.......
The word "eternal" has been bandied about alot and I was wondering whether you, as thread originator, had some working-definition of same?
You seem to (in your OP and subsequent argument) assume a before/after, time-elapsing version of eternity without supplying any reason why one should suppose it to be so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 05-06-2006 8:54 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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