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Author | Topic: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there. That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there. "Don't anyone go there" Purpledawn? Really. This was your sensational topic discription that the fires of hell have gone out. Did you MEAN some other fires beside the fires to which the cursed are sentenced to "go away" to in Matthew 25? Is Purledawn arguing that the eternal fire in Matthew 25 is not eternal? Or is Purpledawn arguing that there are Fires of Hell which have gone out but elsewhere there are eternal fires (i.e. Matthew 25)? This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 09:23 AM
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:God has the power to torment, but his actions recorded in the Bible show that, to date, he hasn't. Therefore we should be able to trust that he won't torment his children (mankind). He will discipline and punish, but not torture. Just as I have the power to torment my child, but my child trusts that I won't because I never have.
quote:As we've noticed I understand the written word very differently than you do. Not much I can do about that though. IMO, you're jumping to a conclusion that isn't necessarily there. The writers of Mark and Luke don't mention the appointed time, but if you read Matthew closely, the statement does not imply that the appointed time was the time of torture. It doesn't specify what is to happen at the appointed time. They simply inquired if Jesus was there to torture them before whatever was to happen at that time. But Jesus didn't torture them in any of the books, they were sent into the pigs, who died. Now I'm not versed on how demons can and can't die, but Jesus did not demonstrate torture or address it.
quote:This isn't about demons, this thread is about humans. I found this interesting in Jude:
1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. If Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, then where is the eternal flame? There is no fire burning on the site of Sodom or Gomorrah. Maybe eternal doesn't mean what we think it means!? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That is the question that is off topic, not my own topic question. Good grief, read! It is quite obvious that you have no clue what I'm arguing about. Read the OP again. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes: Is Purledawn arguing that the eternal fire in Matthew 25 is not eternal? (It's amusing that literalists and dogmatists never seem to understand an analogy. ) You're reading far too much into the "eternal fire" analogy/metaphor. You're dwelling on the "eternal" and neglecting the "fire". "Fire", by it's very nature, consumes what is thrown into it. An "eternal fire" is the burning (destruction) of one object after another, not the perpetual burning of the same object. (Does "throw another log on the fire" ring a bell?) "Eternal" simply means that it will always be there when needed. Fire can be rekindled as necessary - just like the earthly fires of Gehenna. Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel. Similarly, God's punishment of sinners will always be there, as long as there are sinners. But the punishment of individual sinners is final. They are destroyed (consumed) by their punishment. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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DorfMan Member (Idle past 6081 days) Posts: 282 From: New York Joined: |
quote: eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. And the results of the punishment are eternal. Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts. There is no purgatory, there are no people in hell screaming for mercy, there never will be.Too bad for those who want me to go to hell. Eh?
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DorfMan Member (Idle past 6081 days) Posts: 282 From: New York Joined: |
Eternal fires, as taught in many churches, do not exist. She is correct. The idea is to stop sin and the remembrance of it. Screaming hell-dwellers are a constant reminder of sin. And, of course, the citizens of heaven would be participants whilst watching this stuff. Not much of a heaven, eh, what?
It is a satisfying secret wish that the guy despised will burn in hell forever and we get to watch it? That would be commensurate with standing next to him.
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DorfMan Member (Idle past 6081 days) Posts: 282 From: New York Joined: |
quote: You are arguing from doctrine rather than scripture. Doctrine dilutes depending on need.The word hell is translated from several different words with various meanings. In the OT 31 times from "Sheol", which means the grave In the NT 10 times from "Hades", which means the grave 12 times from "Gehenna", which means THE place of burning 1 time from "Tartarus", which means a place of darkness 54 times total. Gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, is a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. This fire was not unending, or it would still burn today.Purpledawn has said as much. Exekiel 28:18,19I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee........and NEVER shalt thou be anymore. Psalm 37:10,20For yet a little while and the wicked shall not be..........shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away. Hell fire is unquenchable........that means you can't put it out. It will go out by itself once it has burned its fuel.Eternal hell perpetuates sin, and that's not going to happen. "He (meaning God) will make an utter end, affliction shall not rise up the second time" Nahum 1:9 For behold I create new heavens and anew earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Is 65:17 Or Not!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Hi Dorfman,
To me you're a new voice. So I think I'll direct some responses your way for a change of pace here.
eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. And the results of the punishment are eternal. Conversely then, "eternal life" is not living eternally? If I come across a poster who teaches that there is neither eternal life or eternal punishment, then I will sit up take notice and say "At least this poster is being consistent."
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
Eternal punishment coupled with the presence of fire does NOT mean that EVERY statement of fire in relation to punishment represents eternal punishment. I am not convinced by arguments like "Because we have fire and punishment uttered in this or that verse, every such verse must indicate eternal suffering." I can think of many verses which utter something about fire and punishment, parabolically or actually, I don't think all of them MUST mean eternal punishment. For example, in Leviticus Nadab and Abihu were consummed by fire for improperly offering incense without dicerning the common from the holy. I do not point to this verse and say "Because the were punished by fire and died, therefore "eternal punishment" by "eternal fire" is an impossibility in the Bible." Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10 are not negated because there are instances like Leviticus 10:1-11 shows God punishing two people with fire but it was not perpetual. At best such instances as you want to point out are indications of God's wrath mixed ("diluted") with some amount of mercy. But in Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 there is no mixture of divine mercy with divine wrath ("undiluted"). We are told beforehand - "He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb." (Rev. 14:11) There are instances where the fury of God's wrath is DILUTED with some mercy. But these instances do not negate those in which His fury and wrath are dispensed without dilution. And in the case of NO dilution we are clearly told with no ambiguity - "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" (Rev. 14:11) In this case of "undiluted" divine fury, it is not simply that the smoke of the fire goes up forever and ever. It is that the smoke "of their tormenting" goes up forever and ever.
There is no purgatory, there are no people in hell screaming for mercy, there never will be. Too bad for those who want me to go to hell. Eh? Who wants you to go to hell? Did I write that I wanted you to go to hell? Besides, strickly speaking hell is hades. And Hades is not necessarily synonomous with fire or punishment. Hades is just the realm of the dead. And another thing, the lake of fire is not only the ultimate punishment. It is also the ultimate escape from God. The conscience finally convicted by the truth of God will most likely cry out for punishment. When a person does not see the hatefulness of sin he may not understand punishment. When eventually in the light of the God of truth he comes to see at last the hatefulness of sin, I think punishment will probably be a relief. I believe that when confronted with the ultimate light of God's righteousness and God's love which the unrepentent sinner has spurned, most likely his conscience will cry out for punishment as a relief from the self hatred at the folly of rebelling against God. But you have pointed out some instances where fire is mentioned in relation to God's punishment. And these you use to prove that there is no eternal punishment in eternal fire. Conversely prove that there is no blessing of eternal life because there are many instances where people were blessed but died, terminating the blessed state. Then I will deem you consistent and judge your argument as a bit more credible at least logically. This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 03:44 PM This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 03:47 PM This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 03:50 PM
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
DorfMan,
Eternal fires, as taught in many churches, do not exist. I am talking about what is taught in the Scripture. I am not speaking for what you may have heard in some church. If you said there is no Devil in a red jump suit with a pitchfork as you heard in such and such church, that may be true. I am not arguing for what you may have heard in some church. I am arguing for what is written in the Bible. There's a difference.
She is correct. The idea is to stop sin and the remembrance of it. Screaming hell-dwellers are a constant reminder of sin. And, of course, the citizens of heaven would be participants whilst watching this stuff. Not much of a heaven, eh, what? You seem not to read the Bible too closely. You might start by reading it more closely. I said hell is strickly speaking, just the realm of death. And though it is another discussion, I don't see "going to heaven" as an eternal destiny of the saved. Your comment on "screaming hell-dwellers" is an appeal to emotion and not to Scripture. I found your comments from Malachi at least a better approach for your position than an appeal to ridicule.
It is a satisfying secret wish that the guy despised will burn in hell forever and we get to watch it? Even if it was, that does not make eternal punishment in eternal fire go away from Matthew chapter 25. All it proves is that the "secret wisher" is an immature Christian. Jesus rebuked his disciples when they requested to bring fire down on the towns which rejected them. He did not tell them that eternal punishment does not exist. He simply said that they did not know what spirit they had. He scolded them for their attitude. It may be wrong to entertain that someone would suffer eternally. That immature wish does not make eternal punishment an unreality. So let's deal with the issue. We can open another thread about spiritual maturity elsewhere. This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 04:02 PM
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
DorfMan,
Gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, is a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. This fire was not unending, or it would still burn today. Purpledawn has said as much. Explain to us why the beast and the false prophet, who were cast into the lake of fire, after 1,000 years "will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10) Is or is not the Bible trying to tell us that after 1,000 years of a firey torment they could still look forward to more torment "forever and ever?" We were told that 1,000 years previous they were cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20). Are we not to understand that when Satan joins them 1,000 years latter (Rev. 20:10), they were still there, not consumed into ashes, and faced with more torment, even forever and ever?" "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they ... they ... THEY [my emphasis] will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Does "day and night forever and ever" communicate endless time or not?
Exekiel 28:18,19 I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee........and NEVER shalt thou be anymore. That's all well and good. It does not negate other passages which clearly indicate something else.
Psalm 37:10,20 For yet a little while and the wicked shall not be..........shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away. That does not negate what we read in Matthew 25, Revelation 14, and Revelation 20. It is merely a different utterance portraying another circumstance. Eternal punishment in eternal fire does not mean each and every mentioning of fire and punishment HAS to be eternal punishment in the rest of the Bible.
Hell fire is unquenchable........that means you can't put it out. It will go out by itself once it has burned its fuel. " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10) "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever..." (Rev. 14:11) You are essentially accusing the Apostle John of making a typo.
Eternal hell perpetuates sin, and that's not going to happen. It could be argued that being so eternally occupied with pain would restrict one from having any more opportunity to sin. And the following verse seems to indicate that up to a point God lets people remain in the state that they choose to be in. "Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still." (REv. 22:11) This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 04:38 PM
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iano Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel. A certain bush springs to mind.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes: ... the results of the punishment are eternal. Conversely then, "eternal life" is not living eternally? Eternal life is living eternally. Eternal punishment is not living eternally. Simple. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel. A certain bush springs to mind. The bush was not the fuel. God was. Still lotsa fuel there. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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iano Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
A very good point. It reveals something of the physics of the environment of hell. If people are not the fuel then the fire has no reason to go out. A piece of steel can sit in flames and not be consumed. It will go red hot though..
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