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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 106 of 300 (309941)
05-07-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by jaywill
05-07-2006 9:10 AM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 9:10 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 9:23 AM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 107 of 300 (309943)
05-07-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by purpledawn
05-07-2006 9:15 AM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there. That's easy, because it isn't the topic of this thread. So don't anyone go there.
"Don't anyone go there" Purpledawn? Really. This was your sensational topic discription that the fires of hell have gone out. Did you MEAN some other fires beside the fires to which the cursed are sentenced to "go away" to in Matthew 25?
Is Purledawn arguing that the eternal fire in Matthew 25 is not eternal?
Or is Purpledawn arguing that there are Fires of Hell which have gone out but elsewhere there are eternal fires (i.e. Matthew 25)?
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 09:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by purpledawn, posted 05-07-2006 9:15 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by purpledawn, posted 05-07-2006 10:21 AM jaywill has not replied
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 108 of 300 (309948)
05-07-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by jaywill
05-07-2006 8:58 AM


God Has the Power to Torment
quote:
How then do you argue that God would not torment?
God has the power to torment, but his actions recorded in the Bible show that, to date, he hasn't. Therefore we should be able to trust that he won't torment his children (mankind). He will discipline and punish, but not torture.
Just as I have the power to torment my child, but my child trusts that I won't because I never have.
quote:
"And behold they [the demons] cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us?" (Matthew 8:29)
The demons realize that eventually the time of their torment will come. They don't deny that. They are only concerned that Christ will send them to that fate before the appointed time.
As we've noticed I understand the written word very differently than you do. Not much I can do about that though.
IMO, you're jumping to a conclusion that isn't necessarily there.
The writers of Mark and Luke don't mention the appointed time, but if you read Matthew closely, the statement does not imply that the appointed time was the time of torture. It doesn't specify what is to happen at the appointed time. They simply inquired if Jesus was there to torture them before whatever was to happen at that time.
But Jesus didn't torture them in any of the books, they were sent into the pigs, who died.
Now I'm not versed on how demons can and can't die, but Jesus did not demonstrate torture or address it.
quote:
What verse do you use to prove that the demons will cease to exist?
This isn't about demons, this thread is about humans.
I found this interesting in Jude:
1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
If Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, then where is the eternal flame? There is no fire burning on the site of Sodom or Gomorrah.
Maybe eternal doesn't mean what we think it means!?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 8:58 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 6:33 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 174 by jaywill, posted 05-08-2006 3:39 PM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 109 of 300 (309951)
05-07-2006 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by jaywill
05-07-2006 9:23 AM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
quote:
From Message 105
If "the eternal fire" in Matthew 25:41 goes out so that the fires are NOT eternal, then why does Purpledawn not conversely argue that "eternal life" in Matthew 25:46 likewise is to expire?
Anyone?
That is the question that is off topic, not my own topic question. Good grief, read!
It is quite obvious that you have no clue what I'm arguing about. Read the OP again.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 9:23 AM jaywill has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 110 of 300 (309963)
05-07-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by jaywill
05-07-2006 9:23 AM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
jaywill writes:
Is Purledawn arguing that the eternal fire in Matthew 25 is not eternal?
(It's amusing that literalists and dogmatists never seem to understand an analogy. )
You're reading far too much into the "eternal fire" analogy/metaphor. You're dwelling on the "eternal" and neglecting the "fire".
"Fire", by it's very nature, consumes what is thrown into it. An "eternal fire" is the burning (destruction) of one object after another, not the perpetual burning of the same object. (Does "throw another log on the fire" ring a bell?)
"Eternal" simply means that it will always be there when needed. Fire can be rekindled as necessary - just like the earthly fires of Gehenna.
Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel.
Similarly, God's punishment of sinners will always be there, as long as there are sinners. But the punishment of individual sinners is final. They are destroyed (consumed) by their punishment.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 4:40 PM ringo has replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 111 of 300 (309964)
05-07-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


The key is
quote:
Therefore the punishment is death by destruction in the Lake of Fire, which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection for this person.
eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. And the results of the punishment are eternal.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
There is no purgatory, there are no people in hell screaming for mercy, there never will be.
Too bad for those who want me to go to hell. Eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 3:43 PM DorfMan has replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 112 of 300 (309966)
05-07-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by jaywill
05-07-2006 9:23 AM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
Eternal fires, as taught in many churches, do not exist. She is correct. The idea is to stop sin and the remembrance of it. Screaming hell-dwellers are a constant reminder of sin. And, of course, the citizens of heaven would be participants whilst watching this stuff. Not much of a heaven, eh, what?
It is a satisfying secret wish that the guy despised will burn in hell forever and we get to watch it?
That would be commensurate with standing next to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 9:23 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 4:00 PM DorfMan has replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 113 of 300 (309972)
05-07-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Modulous
11-01-2005 3:28 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
quote:
So you don't think that Jesus, the Mesiah, King of the Jews, Saviour of Man, publically telling a bunch of people that a man went to Hades where there was torment and fire, is lending credence to the concept of Hades where there is torment and fire?
You are arguing from doctrine rather than scripture. Doctrine dilutes depending on need.
The word hell is translated from several different words with various meanings.
In the OT
31 times from "Sheol", which means the grave
In the NT
10 times from "Hades", which means the grave
12 times from "Gehenna", which means THE place of burning
1 time from "Tartarus", which means a place of darkness
54 times total.
Gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, is a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. This fire was not unending, or it would still burn today.
Purpledawn has said as much.
Exekiel 28:18,19
I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee........and NEVER shalt thou be anymore.
Psalm 37:10,20
For yet a little while and the wicked shall not be..........shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away.
Hell fire is unquenchable........that means you can't put it out. It will go out by itself once it has burned its fuel.
Eternal hell perpetuates sin, and that's not going to happen.
"He (meaning God) will make an utter end, affliction shall not rise up the second time" Nahum 1:9
For behold I create new heavens and anew earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Is 65:17
Or Not!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 3:28 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 4:36 PM DorfMan has replied
 Message 164 by Modulous, posted 05-08-2006 6:32 AM DorfMan has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 114 of 300 (310018)
05-07-2006 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by DorfMan
05-07-2006 11:46 AM


Re: The key is
Hi Dorfman,
To me you're a new voice. So I think I'll direct some responses your way for a change of pace here.
eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. And the results of the punishment are eternal.
Conversely then, "eternal life" is not living eternally?
If I come across a poster who teaches that there is neither eternal life or eternal punishment, then I will sit up take notice and say "At least this poster is being consistent."
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.
Eternal punishment coupled with the presence of fire does NOT mean that EVERY statement of fire in relation to punishment represents eternal punishment.
I am not convinced by arguments like "Because we have fire and punishment uttered in this or that verse, every such verse must indicate eternal suffering." I can think of many verses which utter something about fire and punishment, parabolically or actually, I don't think all of them MUST mean eternal punishment.
For example, in Leviticus Nadab and Abihu were consummed by fire for improperly offering incense without dicerning the common from the holy. I do not point to this verse and say "Because the were punished by fire and died, therefore "eternal punishment" by "eternal fire" is an impossibility in the Bible."
Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10 are not negated because there are instances like Leviticus 10:1-11 shows God punishing two people with fire but it was not perpetual.
At best such instances as you want to point out are indications of God's wrath mixed ("diluted") with some amount of mercy. But in Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 there is no mixture of divine mercy with divine wrath ("undiluted"). We are told beforehand - "He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb." (Rev. 14:11)
There are instances where the fury of God's wrath is DILUTED with some mercy. But these instances do not negate those in which His fury and wrath are dispensed without dilution. And in the case of NO dilution we are clearly told with no ambiguity - "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" (Rev. 14:11)
In this case of "undiluted" divine fury, it is not simply that the smoke of the fire goes up forever and ever. It is that the smoke "of their tormenting" goes up forever and ever.
There is no purgatory, there are no people in hell screaming for mercy, there never will be.
Too bad for those who want me to go to hell. Eh?
Who wants you to go to hell? Did I write that I wanted you to go to hell?
Besides, strickly speaking hell is hades. And Hades is not necessarily synonomous with fire or punishment. Hades is just the realm of the dead.
And another thing, the lake of fire is not only the ultimate punishment. It is also the ultimate escape from God. The conscience finally convicted by the truth of God will most likely cry out for punishment. When a person does not see the hatefulness of sin he may not understand punishment. When eventually in the light of the God of truth he comes to see at last the hatefulness of sin, I think punishment will probably be a relief.
I believe that when confronted with the ultimate light of God's righteousness and God's love which the unrepentent sinner has spurned, most likely his conscience will cry out for punishment as a relief from the self hatred at the folly of rebelling against God.
But you have pointed out some instances where fire is mentioned in relation to God's punishment. And these you use to prove that there is no eternal punishment in eternal fire. Conversely prove that there is no blessing of eternal life because there are many instances where people were blessed but died, terminating the blessed state.
Then I will deem you consistent and judge your argument as a bit more credible at least logically.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 03:44 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 03:47 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 03:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 11:46 AM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 4:49 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 158 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 9:35 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 115 of 300 (310023)
05-07-2006 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by DorfMan
05-07-2006 11:54 AM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
DorfMan,
Eternal fires, as taught in many churches, do not exist.
I am talking about what is taught in the Scripture. I am not speaking for what you may have heard in some church.
If you said there is no Devil in a red jump suit with a pitchfork as you heard in such and such church, that may be true. I am not arguing for what you may have heard in some church. I am arguing for what is written in the Bible. There's a difference.
She is correct. The idea is to stop sin and the remembrance of it. Screaming hell-dwellers are a constant reminder of sin. And, of course, the citizens of heaven would be participants whilst watching this stuff. Not much of a heaven, eh, what?
You seem not to read the Bible too closely. You might start by reading it more closely. I said hell is strickly speaking, just the realm of death. And though it is another discussion, I don't see "going to heaven" as an eternal destiny of the saved.
Your comment on "screaming hell-dwellers" is an appeal to emotion and not to Scripture. I found your comments from Malachi at least a better approach for your position than an appeal to ridicule.
It is a satisfying secret wish that the guy despised will burn in hell forever and we get to watch it?
Even if it was, that does not make eternal punishment in eternal fire go away from Matthew chapter 25. All it proves is that the "secret wisher" is an immature Christian. Jesus rebuked his disciples when they requested to bring fire down on the towns which rejected them. He did not tell them that eternal punishment does not exist. He simply said that they did not know what spirit they had. He scolded them for their attitude.
It may be wrong to entertain that someone would suffer eternally. That immature wish does not make eternal punishment an unreality. So let's deal with the issue. We can open another thread about spiritual maturity elsewhere.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 04:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 116 of 300 (310034)
05-07-2006 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by DorfMan
05-07-2006 12:27 PM


Re: Hades, burning, torment
DorfMan,
Gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, is a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. This fire was not unending, or it would still burn today.
Purpledawn has said as much.
Explain to us why the beast and the false prophet, who were cast into the lake of fire, after 1,000 years "will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10)
Is or is not the Bible trying to tell us that after 1,000 years of a firey torment they could still look forward to more torment "forever and ever?"
We were told that 1,000 years previous they were cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20). Are we not to understand that when Satan joins them 1,000 years latter (Rev. 20:10), they were still there, not consumed into ashes, and faced with more torment, even forever and ever?"
"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they ... they ... THEY [my emphasis] will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Does "day and night forever and ever" communicate endless time or not?
Exekiel 28:18,19
I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee........and NEVER shalt thou be anymore.
That's all well and good. It does not negate other passages which clearly indicate something else.
Psalm 37:10,20
For yet a little while and the wicked shall not be..........shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away.
That does not negate what we read in Matthew 25, Revelation 14, and Revelation 20. It is merely a different utterance portraying another circumstance.
Eternal punishment in eternal fire does not mean each and every mentioning of fire and punishment HAS to be eternal punishment in the rest of the Bible.
Hell fire is unquenchable........that means you can't put it out. It will go out by itself once it has burned its fuel.
" ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10)
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever..." (Rev. 14:11)
You are essentially accusing the Apostle John of making a typo.
Eternal hell perpetuates sin, and that's not going to happen.
It could be argued that being so eternally occupied with pain would restrict one from having any more opportunity to sin.
And the following verse seems to indicate that up to a point God lets people remain in the state that they choose to be in.
"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still." (REv. 22:11)
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 04:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 12:27 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 10:09 PM jaywill has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 117 of 300 (310036)
05-07-2006 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
05-07-2006 11:22 AM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel.
A certain bush springs to mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 11:22 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 4:52 PM iano has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 118 of 300 (310040)
05-07-2006 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jaywill
05-07-2006 3:43 PM


Re: The key is
jaywill writes:
... the results of the punishment are eternal.
Conversely then, "eternal life" is not living eternally?
Eternal life is living eternally.
Eternal punishment is not living eternally.
Simple.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 3:43 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 5:03 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 300 (310042)
05-07-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by iano
05-07-2006 4:40 PM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
iano writes:
Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel.
A certain bush springs to mind.
The bush was not the fuel. God was. Still lotsa fuel there.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 4:40 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 4:59 PM ringo has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 120 of 300 (310046)
05-07-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
05-07-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
A very good point. It reveals something of the physics of the environment of hell. If people are not the fuel then the fire has no reason to go out. A piece of steel can sit in flames and not be consumed. It will go red hot though..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 05-07-2006 4:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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