The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

Ringo, It is indeed simple. Matthew 25:46 does NOT read as you understand:"And these shall [DIE], but the righteous into eternal life"It is written this way:"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" "Eternal punishment" in the passage equals "eternal fire". Compare verse 46 with verse 41.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:03 PM

Purpledawn and DorfMan,In Revelation some men are tormented for "five months" (Rev.9:10) and then afterward tormented "forever" (Rev.20:10).On what basis are we to believe in "five months" of torment and yet reject "forever and ever" torment?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:16 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:17 PM

We've been through that. The fire is eternal - the units of fuel that are fed into it are not. They are consumed - destroyed - for all eternity.

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Who said the people are not the fuel? In the metaphor of earthly Gehenna, the dead certainly are the fuel - and it is their consumption/destruction that is emphasized.

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Ringo, How come the beast and the false prophet were not all consumed up after 1,000 years but still had to look forward to more burning torment "forever and ever?" (Compare Rev. 19:20 with 20:10)And "Well, Revelation is too symbolic you know?" is not an answer.You can also take a crack at answering Message 122.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:27 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:27 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:28 PM

Don't stretch an earthly methphor too far. We cannot have fire without the fuel being consumed on earth. Metaphor is "like" not "same"A person can consumed with lust and still be a personA marriage can be destroyed by one committing adultery yet remain a marriage.A bush in flames but not consumed. God, the eternal flame. If he can do it with a bush he can do it with a person

That's the answer, whether you like it or not.If we can't agree on whether the Revelation refers to the future of the 1st-century Jews or to our future, trying to discuss it's symbolism in this context is utterly useless.If your case is so strong, make it outside the Revelation.

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iano, Tell them iano. Tell them.

The question is not whether He could. The question is whether He does.The pertinent metaphor here is the earthly Gehenna, not the burning bush. You can't go willy-nilly cherry-picking attributes of one metaphor to un-explain another one. Stick to the metaphor in the OP.

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Ringo, Even if you do not totally understand it you can comment on what the writer seems to be trying to communicate.I don't argue that Revelation has nothing difficult to understand in it. The two passages that I presented are not that difficult - two men went alive into a place of punishment. And 1,000 years latter they are still there waiting for the punishment to continue forever.What is the writing conveying? That they were consumed so as to be no more? Or that 1,000 years latter they were still undergoing torment?The latter is clearly what the writer is portraying. And that is whether YOU like it or not. Then comment on Isaiah 66:24"Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, Nor will their fire be quenched;"How come their fire will NOT be quenched? I thought the fire is quenched when they are all burnt up?Hiding behind the Jewish concept will not give you an escape route here.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 05:51 PM

Is the 1000 years meant to be tken literally? Is the fire itself meant to be taken literally?You can not be nearly so "clear" on what the writer is portraying as you pretend to be. I think purpledawn covered that. A fire "goes out" when it runs out of fuel. It is "quenched" when somebody puts it out. Two different things.A fire that we can not put out will still stop burning when it runs out of fuel.

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So Matthew 25:41 really means "Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the [TEMPORARY] fire prepared for the devil and his angels?"And it should not read as it does - "Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels?"And "[T]hey shall reign forever and ever" means they shall reign for a temporary time?And "tormented day and night forever and ever" likewise means tormented for a temporary time?

This is getting tiresome.I have explained that fire is eternal in the sense that it can be rekindled as needed. A particular fire will burn out when it runs out of fuel.Please read the thread before you bring up the same nonsense over and over again.

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Purpledawn, I think this is a fair point. And I have not yet answered it well. I'll get to it.But first this: But what if we turn out NOT to be His children?Can we be His creation yet not be His children? The Scripture indicates that some people He created are not His children:"Jesus said to them, If God were your Father you would love Me; for I came forth out of God and have come from Him ... You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." (See John 8:42-44)These people were of "mankind." Yet Jesus said their father was the devil and not God. Are they in danger of torment then?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 06:35 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-07-2006 06:35 PM

quote:

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In Revelation some men are tormented for "five months" (Rev.9:10) and then afterward tormented "forever" (Rev.20:10).

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Since you don't want to deal with the symbolism of Revelations, I'll take it at face value.In chapter 9 the first woe is written about. As I understand it, the woes are warnings. A warning not a judgment. So the vision presents a five month warning.In chapter 20:10 there is some question as to whether the phrase forever and ever really means without end or just a very long period of time. This also only dealt with the devil, the beast and the false prophet (singular). This isn't really talking about all unrighteous people which is what I'm talking about.

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On what basis are we to believe in "five months" of torment and yet reject "forever and ever" torment?

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It has nothing to do with believing the individual verse, it has to do with understanding the overall vision and the message it contains.Your scatter technique is interesting, but doesn't help me see any flaw in my original conclusion.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz