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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 151 of 300 (310102)
05-07-2006 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by jaywill
05-07-2006 8:10 PM


Re: Eternal Torment
Well spotted JW (JW? Oops sorry!). There are some who are notorius for it. PD isn't usually

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 152 of 300 (310103)
05-07-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
05-07-2006 8:11 PM


iano writes:
But we have no reason to suppose a finite amount of fuel will ever burn out.
Sure we do. A finite amount of fuel consists of a finite number of molecules which can combine with a finite number of oxygen molecules. When the last fuel molecule is gone, the fire is out.
Your "slower and slower and slower" scheme does not apply.

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 Message 150 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:37 PM ringo has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 153 of 300 (310110)
05-07-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by jaywill
05-07-2006 8:00 PM


Punishment and Torment: One More Time
quote:
So eternal punishment is not eternal torment?
Write it out clearly before I discuss it. Commit yourself.
I covered it starting in Message 66.

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 300 (310112)
05-07-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
05-07-2006 8:16 PM


Sure we do. A finite amount of fuel consists of a finite number of molecules which can combine with a finite number of oxygen molecules. When the last fuel molecule is gone, the fire is out.
Heavenly bodies do not act like earthly ones. Glorifed bodies (like Jesus resurrection body) for instance can appear and disappear and arrive in locked rooms.
Your projecting earthly happenings into the spiritual realm.
Besides, the issue here is "cease to exist". Any fire I know produces ash. Ash is a substance that can be immersed in a fire forever without being consumed. The rubbish doesn't cease to exist - it is simply reduced down to its most worthless form. You cannot destroy ash. PD has told us in the OP that the fire at Gehenna was stoked by an external fuel other than the rubbish itself (sulphur and brimstone) so as to ensure it burned continuously
I wonder is the fuel of the rubbish which is consumed the image and likeness of God that even human rubbish contains. That God removes any trace of that which is him: love, pleasure, peace, joy, happiness and leaves a person only with what is worthless.
Ashes to ashes dust to dust indeed

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 155 of 300 (310113)
05-07-2006 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by jaywill
05-07-2006 8:10 PM


Re: Eternal Torment
quote:
No position is much easier to defend.
This is my topic, my position is very clear, starting with the OP.
quote:
I notice your posts are coming with fewer and fewer words, one liners, cautious, witholding your opinion.
Present something that has some substance to it and deals with the topic and then I might have something to say.
I'd appreciate it if you would deal with the topic and discussion and stop trying to characterize me. Remember, argue the position not the person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 8:10 PM jaywill has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 300 (310117)
05-07-2006 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by iano
05-07-2006 8:37 PM


iano writes:
Your projecting earthly happenings into the spiritual realm.
No, I'm extending the Gehenna image to its logical conclusion. Your musings about "heavenly bodies" are irrelevant.
The rubbish doesn't cease to exist - it is simply reduced down to its most worthless form. You cannot destroy ash.
So you're claiming that the ashes undergo eternal torment?

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 157 of 300 (310126)
05-07-2006 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by jaywill
05-07-2006 8:10 PM


Re: Eternal Torment
Jaywill,
Please keep your posts on topic. The topic is hellfire and eternal torment, NOT Purple's posting habits.
Knowing Purple, if you discuss the OP she will be more than happy to discuss it also.

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    This message is a reply to:
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    DorfMan
    Member (Idle past 6081 days)
    Posts: 282
    From: New York
    Joined: 09-08-2005


    Message 158 of 300 (310136)
    05-07-2006 9:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by jaywill
    05-07-2006 3:43 PM


    Good logic
    quote:
    Conversely then, "eternal life" is not living eternally?
    Jaywill, you are saying what I am saying, you just don't see it yet. No condescension intended.
    Eternal punishment, or the punishment that lasts eternally, is the opposite of eternal life or life that lasts eternally. Please note that punishment and punishing are not compatible. And the Bible does NOT say eternal punishing. That the wicked shall be ashes under our feet, means they have burned up, the same way a piece of wood burns up and becomes ashes.
    "..........and fire came down from heaven and devoured them...."Rev 20:9
    When I devour my potatos they are gone.
    "For the Lord shall rise up.........that he may do his work, HIS STRANGE WORK, and bring to pass his STRANGE ACT" Is 28:21
    God will make an end to sin, it is called His strange act/work.
    He will make an utter end, affliction shall not rise up the second time. Nahum 1:9
    Perhaps you do not see God's love in this.
    "As I live, saith the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.....turn ye, turn ye......Ez 33:11
    Jesus came to save, not to destroy Luke 9:56
    And destroy is a finite term, it never implies anything else.
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it much.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 3:43 PM jaywill has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    DorfMan
    Member (Idle past 6081 days)
    Posts: 282
    From: New York
    Joined: 09-08-2005


    Message 159 of 300 (310137)
    05-07-2006 9:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 115 by jaywill
    05-07-2006 4:00 PM


    Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
    quote:
    He did not tell them that eternal punishment does not exist.
    Eternal punishment exists (with eternal results). Eternal punishing does not(without eternal results).
    Matthew 25 is compatible.
    Or not!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 4:00 PM jaywill has not replied

    DorfMan
    Member (Idle past 6081 days)
    Posts: 282
    From: New York
    Joined: 09-08-2005


    Message 160 of 300 (310140)
    05-07-2006 10:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 116 by jaywill
    05-07-2006 4:36 PM


    Forever
    quote:
    Explain to us why the beast and the false prophet, who were cast into the lake of fire, after 1,000 years "will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10)
    Are you married, Jaywill? Did you promise you'd love her forever?
    Please also look at the meaning of the word 'forever'.
    Excerpt:
    In general, the word aion is translated: forever. However its real meaning is "Age". There are actually two meanings for the word "Age"
    1. "Age" can mean a human lifetime, or life itself. So it can be a limited time, as long as someone is going to live.
    2. "Age" can also mean an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, or an eternity. So it can mean forever.
    In the Greek New Testament, "Age" almost always refers to the subject of Jesus or God. Since He lives forever, the time that is meant is forever. However in the Old Testament, we have many examples where forever only means a life-time. Hebrew can have the same two meanings.
    16. And if it happens that he says to you, 'I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
    17. then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. Deuteronomy 15:16-17
    Idiomatic Phrases
    In the New Testament, the word "Age" is not used by itself, but rather; It is included in an idiomatic expression or a phrase. These phrases are thought to describe an undefined period of time.
    Both of the following phrases are usually translated as: "for ever and ever"
    In Rev. 14:11 the phrase: eis aionas aionon literally means: "unto ages of ages"
    In Rev. 20:10 the phrase: eis tous aionas ton anionon literally means: "unto the ages of the ages"
    Other similar phrases are found in the New Testament as well. These phrases are usually translated as: "forever"
    10. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:10
    It is clear that Isaiah was not saying that the smoke would be there forever since he then says that the land would become a waste for generations, and that only wild animals would inhabit the area (verses 10-15). So, the description of the smoke speaks of complete destruction.
    http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/special1.htm
    I hope this helps.
    And, the bible does not contradict itself.
    Or not!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 4:36 PM jaywill has replied

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    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 161 of 300 (310198)
    05-08-2006 4:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 158 by DorfMan
    05-07-2006 9:35 PM


    He came not to annhilate ?
    DorfMan,
    Eternal punishment, or the punishment that lasts eternally, is the opposite of eternal life or life that lasts eternally. Please note that punishment and punishing are not compatible. And the Bible does NOT say eternal punishing. That the wicked shall be ashes under our feet, means they have burned up, the same way a piece of wood burns up and becomes ashes.
    The Bible does not allow me to believe that in all cases the punishment is not the punishing. I am prevented from adopting this kind of understanding, for instance, in Rev.14:11:
    The NIV Greek Interlinear has below the Greek in English - "And the smoke of the torment of them unto ages of ages goes up, and they have not rest day and night the [ones] worshipping the beast and the image of it ..."
    Now that passage does not permit me to adopt your interpretation that the punishING is terminated. If their tormenting terminates, then the smoke of their torment would also cease. If their torment ended any continuing smoke ascending would NOT be the smoke of thier torment. As it is clearly uttered by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the smoke of their torment ascending "forever and ever" communicates that "forever and ever" they are tormented.
    If this is not the case then why should I believe that "And He [Christ] will reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15) either?
    Revelation 9:5 says "And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months ...". And verse 10 says " ... and in their tails is their power to harm men for five months"
    I have no basis to interpret those passages that the torment and the harm will last one month, or two months, or three months, or four months. I am not allowed that understanding. What is communicated to me is that some men will be harmed for five months, tormented for five months. In the same way "tormented day and night forever and ever" does not permit me to imagine that the torment is only five months or six months or one hundred months. It only permits me to understand that it is being stated that the number of months of days is without end - "day and night forever and ever". And this would be in complete harmony with the phrase [b]"the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever" ( Rev. 14:11,Recovery Version NT).
    "..........and fire came down from heaven and devoured them...."Rev 20:9
    We may assume that the fire devouring them means that they are killed. But we are also clearly warned by Christ that God has the authority to do something further to sinners "after killing"
    "And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and AFTERWARDS have nothing more that they can do.
    But I will show you whom you should fear: fear HIm who, after killing, has the authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)
    1.) Christ's intent here is to teach that there is danger to be feared "AFTERWARDS" when it comes to the killing of the body.
    2.) This fear must be based on the ADDITIONAL authority that God has, which man does not have.
    3.) That additional authority is the authority to do something else "after killing".
    Now the problem is what could Jesus mean by "after killing" we should fear the danger of being cast into Gehenna. It is far less likely to me that He means "Afer killing God has the authority to dump your dead corpse into an undignified place like the city dump for your corpse to become ashes there."
    This might be His meaning? But I judge that it is highly unlikely that it is. Cannot man "after killing" ALSO dump your corpse into the city dump? Is that not within man's authority to do? So the Gehenna of fire must be being used by Jesus to symbolize a trash dump of GREATER authority rather than the same as civil authority.
    Now we come back to Revelation 20:9 which you quoted. I interpret the Bible to teach that after the body is devoured by the fire falling out of the sky, God has additional authority to harm those thus physically devoured. I am not permitted to understand that His authority to harm those enemies of His is terminated once they were devoured by falling fire.
    "For the Lord shall rise up.........that he may do his work, HIS STRANGE WORK, and bring to pass his STRANGE ACT" Is 28:21
    This is one of my favorite verses on the subject. Thanks for finding it for me. However, it only says that it is strange that God should have to judge. It does not say that He will not judge. It is only states that for Him to have to do so is strange.
    It may indeed be very strange to God that He should have to punish the lost forever and ever. I am not allowed to think that because of this He will not do what He says He will do if we are not saved through His salvation in Christ. In fact it is more strange that we should not fear His authority and believe the gospel that we may be saved from our sins.
    Perhaps you do not see God's love in this.
    "As I live, saith the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.....turn ye, turn ye......Ez 33:11
    I do see great love of God in the whole Bible. But I do not see God giving up His eternal justice for the sake of His great love. It is His great love that the judgment for sin has fallen on Christ on the cross that, believing we might be saved.
    That God has no pleasure in our not believing and perishing is not at all surprising. I'm extending your reference to the New Testament subject we are discussing. Generally speaking, God is not delighted that He should have to punish the unrepentent. That does not mean that He will not do what He has no delight in.
    Jesus came to save, not to destroy Luke 9:56
    If this is your reason for believing that He will NOT cast the unsaved into eternal punishment then by the same token you should teach that Jesus did not come to annhilate them either. Therefore He will not annhilate anyone? You should be consistent in this.
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 04:57 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 9:35 PM DorfMan has not replied

    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 162 of 300 (310199)
    05-08-2006 4:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by DorfMan
    05-07-2006 10:09 PM


    Re: Forever
    Are you married, Jaywill? Did you promise you'd love her forever?
    No, I don't think so. That's for teenage love songs. (I've been happily married for about 28 years)
    Please also look at the meaning of the word 'forever'.
    Well, to be fair (before getting into a word study) I realize that in the Old Testament there are some things that God said would last forever (I believe) which I question. However, all things considered, it is difficult to misunderstand that some things He said are forever are to be terminated.
    Am I to believe that " ... His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15) really means that God and Christ will only reign temporarily?
    On what basis do I assume forever and ever applies literally to Christ reigning but figuratively to God's enemies being tormented?
    Before I go further - Have you in the past also gone by the tag elsewhere "Tentmaker?"
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 04:40 AM
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 04:42 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 10:09 PM DorfMan has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by DorfMan, posted 05-08-2006 10:31 AM jaywill has replied

    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 163 of 300 (310204)
    05-08-2006 5:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 66 by purpledawn
    05-06-2006 5:16 PM


    Re: Hades, burning, torment
    Purpledawn,
    Punishment is a penalty and the penalty is forever, never to be reversed. Torment is torture. If someone were to endure eternal torment, he would be experiencing it eternally and therefore has eternal life. Not a good eternal life, but continuing eternally none the less.
    Eternal punishment means that the person ceases to exist, never to be given eternal life. The penalty is eternal not the person life.
    1.) In your opinion is the death sentence handed down by some civil authorities "eternal punishment"?
    2.) Why do governments of the world not discribe capital punishment as "eternal punishment"?
    3.) Is it possible to have "punishment" without suffering?
    4.) If a person does not exist, is that person suffering?
    5.) If a person does not exist is he undergoing punishment?
    6.) Are all non-existent people being punished at this moment?
    7.) Can a non-existent person undergo "eternal punishment"?
    8.) If a tormented person suddenly ceases to exist is he being "tormented day and night forever and ever"?
    Eternal torment would mean that all receive eternal life, but some are tortured and others are on streets of gold.
    Please answer these questions:
    1.) Does the phrase "tormented day and night forever and ever" mean "eternal torment" to you?
    2.) Does the Bible teach that some people will undergo the circumstance of "tormented day and night forever and ever", for example " ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10)?
    3.) If so then does the Bible teach that these punished ones undergo "eternal torment"?
    If you feel that the teachings of Jesus support eternal torment, then share the verses keeping in mind what I have explained above.
    This has been responded to already.
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 05:54 AM
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 05:59 AM
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 06:00 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 05-06-2006 5:16 PM purpledawn has not replied

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    Modulous
    Member
    Posts: 7801
    From: Manchester, UK
    Joined: 05-01-2005


    Message 164 of 300 (310209)
    05-08-2006 6:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 113 by DorfMan
    05-07-2006 12:27 PM


    Re: Hades, burning, torment
    So you don't think that Jesus, the Mesiah, King of the Jews, Saviour of Man, publically telling a bunch of people that a man went to Hades where there was torment and fire, is lending credence to the concept of Hades where there is torment and fire?
    You are arguing from doctrine rather than scripture. Doctrine dilutes depending on need.
    Perhaps you weren't following the debate? I was arguing from Luke 16:19+ where the rich man goes to Hades where there is torment and fire.
    quote:
    And in (Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom
    And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
    I know very well about the valley of Hinnom, but I am still arguing from Scripture.
    10 times from "Hades", which means the grave
    This confuses me though. The standard meaning of Hades in Greek means the underworld, in its original use it referred to the realm ruled by the god of the same name and protected by the three headed dog Cerberus (or Kerberos if you're Bill Gates).
    1 time from "Tartarus", which means a place of darkness
    Tartarus, in Greek mythology is either part of Hades, or below Hades depending. It is where the punishments fit the crime, the place where wicked people go (as opposed to Elysium/Heaven).
    This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 08-May-2006 12:07 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by DorfMan, posted 05-07-2006 12:27 PM DorfMan has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 167 by DorfMan, posted 05-08-2006 10:40 AM Modulous has replied

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 165 of 300 (310224)
    05-08-2006 8:05 AM


    The OP Revisited
    It has been brought to my attention that my charges of off-topic may have been unwarranted. Since this topic has been revived, I think we need to revisit my original post. I feel that my opponents have read the title, but haven't really read or understood the crux of my argument.
    Actually the eternal fires of "Hell" do not exist anymore.
    The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom.
    The Valley of Hinnom had a very horrendous history in ancient times. It was used as a place where the pagan worshipers did all sorts of vile and wicked things - including burning children alive as sacrifices to the idols Moloch and Baal. One section of the valley was called Tophet, or the "fire-stove," where the children were slaughtered (2 Kings 23:10). It was a place of tremendous evil for many years.
    After the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, the valley became the city’s incinerator. Apparently they even added sulpur or brimstone to keep the fires burning continuously.
    Gehenna became a vivid symbol of destruction and an abomination.
    Therefore if your dead body was thrown into Gehenna, you were deemed a criminal. Your body was destroyed and you had no part in the world to come. This is the picture that the NT authors were presenting, not eternal torment.
    Gehenna is no longer burning. Photos of Hell
    Fortunately the scriptures do not support the teaching of eternal torment.
    The only scripture that might support the teaching is:
    Matt 25:46”"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
    If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
    IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.
    Therefore the punishment is death by destruction in the Lake of Fire, which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection for this person.
    Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.
    If you notice the fires of "Hell" that I'm talking about refer to the Valley of Hinnom, which are no longer burning. The term "Gehenna" is not used in Revelation. Hades is used in the Book of Revelation.
    Also notice, I did not say there was no lake of fire. My "hell" reference refers to Gehenna.
    If we look at the etymology of the word "hell", we see that it is more closely related to Hades or the grave. Gehenna is neither. Nothing living was thrown into Gehenna. It symbolized destruction, not torment.
    Since the word "hell" is used to refer to Hades in the KJV, then the lake of fire referred to in Revelation 20:14 (And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.) isn't hell either.
    If you want to show me that the scriptures do promote eternal (without end) torment, then show me in relation to what I stated.
    If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
    IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse (Mat 25:46) states that only the righteous receive eternal life.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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