The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

I have expounded on the scriptures with you and feel I can go no farther. I don't do the work of the Holy Spirit, and will step aside to let Him continue.I am not nor have I ever been Omar Khayyam.

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Perhaps you weren't following the debate? I was arguing from Luke 16:19+ where the rich man goes to Hades where there is torment and fire.

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And? In what way does that negate that the fire will devour and in so doing, does its job?Aside from that, Lazarus' bosom is NOT the home of the saved. This parable is a parable..........but not to show the eternal singing of human butts.Manchester, England, England. Birth place of Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, a fine composer of modern classical music.

DorfMan, In other words "I know that the Holy Spirit agrees with my teaching."I found discussing with you cordial and constructive.
Goodbye as far as this subject is concerned.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 10:56 AM

Was I attempting to negate that? I was merely showing that Hades is presented as a place of fire and torment, as per Revelations which describes it as a lake of fire. This was to show that Gehenna is not the only reference to a post-death fiery end - so the conclusion that the fires of hell have gone out is possibly premature.The rich man burned, not in Gehenna, but in Hades. Right, thet parable was to show that after death you get what's coming. If you suffered in life like Lazarus, you will be comforted. If you were comfortable like the rich man, you will suffer in Hades. As I said before, why would Jesus make up a punishment in this parable rather than just stating what the nature of the post-life suffering will be? It would seem that Jesus is giving credence to a concept that He doesn't believe in. A fine place, filled with fine folk. Plenty of unfine folk here too though This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 08-May-2006 04:40 PM

Dorfman, I like Arnold Bax and Frank Bridge myself. I don't know Davies yet. Meet you sometime on a classical music forum.ps. I dabble in composing myself.

The problem is this folks:The citizens of Jerusalem HAD authority to execute criminals and cast their bodies into the Valley of Hinnom (Gehanna). So when the Son of God said that we should fear the one with more authority than this this necessarily makes "Gehenna" represent something else besides the Valley of Hinnom.Authority LEVEL 1 - Jerusalem's citizens may kill you. Authority LEVEL 2 - Jerusalem's citizens may cast your dead corpse into the city dump - Gehenna.Here man's authority is ended. Now Jesus warns us that God's authority goes a step beyond this."But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has the authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One" (Luke 11:5)Jesus cannot possibly refering to Authority LEVEL 2 as the additional authority. And this fact makes it evident that Jesus uses the symbol of Gehenna to mean a place where another level of authority is called for. After killing the body and throwing it into the city dump there is: Authority LEVEL 3 - God "after killing" can cast you into Gehenna. Authority LEVEL 3 MUST refer to a God's authority place your immaterial part after you have been killed.And we see that in the teaching of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man was placed in such a place by God after he died.Response anyone?This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 12:55 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 12:56 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 12:59 PM

Perhaps Purpledawn will not address these questions. Perhaps she is just taking longer to do so. I don't know. But what Annhilationist would like to answer these questions for me? This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 02:33 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 02:37 PM

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I was merely showing that Hades is presented as a place of fire and torment, as per Revelations which describes it as a lake of fire.

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Since this has been revived I've had a chance for a fresh look. I still don't think the parable was dealing with eternal torment, but did notice something else.Hades by reputation is split into two places supposedly, a side for the good (Bosom of Abraham) and the side for the wicked, which supposedly has fire. Let's say people go to Hades after death as described in the parable. I noticed that Revelation does not describe Hades as a lake of fire.Hades gives up its dead. Hades and Death are thrown into the lake of fire. So if Hades gives up its dead for final judgment and is then thrown into the lake of fire, then the lake of fire is not Hades and Hades is not an eternal spot for anything.The word Gehenna is not used by the author of Revelation, which was supposedly written about 90-95ce, but is used by the synoptic authors and once in James. The phrase "lake of fire" is used by the author of Revelation but not by the synoptic authors.Some have said that Gehenna is the lake of fire, but as a visual the actual Gehenna was a pit.While the term Gehenna can be connected with the Valley of Hinnom can it really be connected with the lake of fire other than by tradition?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I promised to address this point. Two possibilities exist.1.) Jude was calling the temporary fire that burned up Sodom eternal fire.2.) Jude means that those who perished in Sodom and Gomorrah are still being punished in eternal fire.One thing is clear from the same epistle from the same writer. God has the authority and the power to reserve all created beings to an extraordinary judgment upon their sins. This is demonstrated by the immediately preceeding verse to verse 7:"And the angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6)This may not tell us whether Jude meant the inhabitants of Sodom and Gamorrah are or are not still being punished with fire. But it does indicate that we CANNOT exclude that Jude could have meant that. This is because even the supernatural angels, who are higher and more powerful than mortal man (2 Peter 2:11), God has a way to detain and punish. How then can we possibly insist that departed human beings can escape His dealing?In fact the parallel discussion in 2 Peter, Peter adds this:"The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:9)Peter's point is that God knows how to do this. We may not know how He is able to continue to burn the inhabitants of Sodom and Gamorrah after they were turn physically to ashes. But the Apostle Peter tells us that with God there is not a limitation to "keep the unrighteous under punishment".Therefore I judge that we cannot exclude possibility # 2 as Jude's meaning. We cannot assume that "the penalty of eternal fire"
cannot mean that they are not still under a burning penalty.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 03:41 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 03:46 PM

to the problem. Borrowing from paganism and applying it to what scripture actually says. As in -- reading it for what it says, rather than reading it from pre-conceived ideas, ideas conceived by mechanisms with a stake in error.The traditions of men are vanity and a waste of time.Here's some good reading for anyone interested in the parable.
http://english.sdaglobal.org/evangelism/bibans/12laz.htm
Am I right in believing that the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham takes place between departed souls of the dead? How is it that the soul of the rich man could be in need of water---a material substance? And if it is true that a tormented soul can get some relief from a drop of water on its tongue, why does the rich man, in asking for help, not ask Lazarus to bring him a bucket of water for greater satisfaction? It would involve a special trip anyway.-----------The bottom line in Jesus' story is for our instruction as well as for the Jews. "Moses and the prophets" stand for the word of God. The Bible is all we need to guide us to heaven. We must give our full attention to studying and practicing its teachings. There is danger that we turn from the Bible to look at miracles. If we disobey the Bible teachings, no miracle can make us better Christians. Regarding the state of the dead we must believe what the Bible says; have no dealings with spirit mediums. Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, "The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing."Our Lord teaches us: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

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Dorfman,

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Birth place of Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, a fine composer of modern classical music.

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I like Arnold Bax and Frank Bridge myself. I don't know Davies yet. Meet you sometime on a classical music forum.

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ps. I dabble in composing myself.

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I was spellbound by his "Orkney wedding with sunrise".
He likes to conduct his music, that's how we met.
Enough of the asides, or Clancy will lower the boom.

Correct. This too I say is right. In the Bible Hades and Death are like a temporary jail and the lake of fire is a permenant prison.Hades is a staging area where the lost are uncomfortable in punishment and the saved are resting in a Paradise situation.These are at least two places that we are told about, a pleasant section of Hades and an unpleasant section. That is true. However if the rich man and other condemned people are suffering in Hades it is not relief that they are transfered to similiarly suffer in the lake of fire into which death and Hades are cast.The physics and the science may be totally unclear to us. But the general meaning is communicated quite well. The lost go from the temporary jail where they suffer to the permenant prison where they continue to suffer. The word Gehenna is not used in the book of Revelation. That fact is no particular comfort to the lost. The function that the unpleasant section of Hades performs continues to be performed in the lake of fire. To say so may be lose and imprecise. But they say so probably because they noticed that the function of Gehenna contiues to be performed in the lake of fire. That is the function of Gehenna as the Lord Jesus spoke where "after killing" God has authority to cast someone into its judgment. It is connected with the Valley of Hinnom ALSO by "tradition."Essentially this poster has simply prefered one traditional usage of the word instead of the other. Traditional connection to something is not the reason why Purpledawn has rejected the idea of eternal torment.The footnote of the Recovery Version NT says this: One other important point though perhaps a little off topic:Revelation 21:8 - "But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death"The first two characteristics of this list are significant. First the Bible mentions "the cowardly" and then "unbelieving". The "cowardly" are those who deep within really believe in Jesus Christ's salvation but are AFRAID to ask Him to be their Lord that they may be saved. The "unbelieving" are those who simply will not believe in Christ.This implies that many people will perish needlessly. Deep within they know the truth. But for some reason they are afraid to let Christ be their Savior. Perhaps they fear man, the loss of a relationship, the loss of prestiege, or whatever. They are "cowardly" and fail to grasp that nothing is worth going to eternal damnation for.Secondly, some simply don't believe the words of Jesus. So they perish being "unbelieving". The rest of the list are just samples of the sins which the unsaved person was never justified from because of rejecting Christ for whatever reason.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 06:09 PM

Dorfman, Maybe if we talk about Vaughn William's music piece Lazarus and Dives here, the Moderator will let us discuss British classical music on the same thread as Hades. Eh?Just kidding.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 06:17 PM

Dorfman,I respect and realize that you no longer wish to argue with me. So I am not now arguing. But since you are still in the discussion, I simply place my comment about this: Questions about water, the need for water, the gulf, whether or not gravity would make the souls fall down into the gulf or not, are all good questions for which I have no answers. Of course I have thought of many things like this.How could he be thirsty ??? What does it mean a gulf seperating the two sections???My bottom line is the story communicates the essentials that Christ wants us to know. I think it would be utterly fool hearty to ignore the warning based on a belief that our knowledge of science renders Christ's words frivolous.In other words. Yes there are a number of very good questions. But we ignore the teaching at our own peril. I don't think it is worth the risk.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-08-2006 06:27 PM

This commentary on Lazarus and the Rich Man has a very interesting outlook dealing with Gentiles and the Jews.I don't know that I agree with that symbolism, but the thoughts concerning the Hades in the story address some of your questions.But I don't feel the parable was about eternal torment or Hades.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz