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Author Topic:   Debate (Re: A young Earth/old Earth classroom debate)
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 76 of 84 (72586)
12-12-2003 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by The Ninja Monkey
12-12-2003 5:30 PM


Re: Other Side
Congratulations, Ninja I hope our suggestions here helped.
Unfortunately, we've been experiencing the exact same thing: we haven't found any creationists who have been able to put up any sort of decent argument at all, which is unfortunate. Often, they just come in, post outdated (or outright bogus) information from sites like "Answers In Genesis" (or even worse, Dr. Dino), or misquote scientists, and when they're shown how outdated and incorrect their information is, they stop posting (or more commonly, move away from the evolution forums and into the bible forums - that's where most of our creationists here end up hanging out).
Surely if it were at all a solid theory, we could find at least one who could hold their own in an evolution debate... if you ever run into one, please, by all means, send them over this way. Or, if you were ever willing to try....
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by The Ninja Monkey, posted 12-12-2003 5:30 PM The Ninja Monkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by NosyNed, posted 12-12-2003 5:43 PM Rei has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 77 of 84 (72588)
12-12-2003 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Rei
12-12-2003 5:40 PM


A Small Warning!
Ninja, I would be careful on taking up Rei's invitation. I don't like the look of that toothy grin. I think she might have a taste for bush meat!
Added by edit:
But maybe if your teacher and the whole class took this on as a project? That might almost be fair or would Rei only put on weight?
[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 12-13-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Rei, posted 12-12-2003 5:40 PM Rei has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 78 of 84 (72598)
12-12-2003 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by The Ninja Monkey
12-12-2003 5:30 PM


Congrats on the victory. Now I am interested in what that victory really meant...
1) How did the teacher take an OE victory?
2) Will this affect the teaching of the class, or will it resume being YE with no explanation why OE was somehow wrong (despite the victory)?
3) How did YOU take the OE victory? Are you still YE inclined, or are you starting to see that perhaps science should see the earth as old, and that that position does not necessarily conflict with religion?
4) What does "we got 75% of a YE class to vote OE" mean? Does that mean they thought you were wrong but were better debaters, or that they felt your position was right?
Also, I'd love to know if my contribs were helpful.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by The Ninja Monkey, posted 12-12-2003 5:30 PM The Ninja Monkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by The Ninja Monkey, posted 12-13-2003 3:16 PM Silent H has replied

The Ninja Monkey
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 84 (72701)
12-13-2003 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Silent H
12-12-2003 7:53 PM


1) I don't think she really cared that much, other students in the class had their own debates to do, so we didn't have time for post-debate discussion.
2) I don't think it will effect the teaching of the class, seeings as most (if not all) of the curriculum is planned out already.
3) As for me...I don't know...I guess I'm not quite as inclined to a young earth as I was before. I suppose that now forces me to reinterprate the Bible, and I don't want to do that right now.
4) When asked to vote for who debated their side better, 75% of the class voted for my side. I don't think that means they will necessarily change thier beliefs though.
Yes, your contributions were very helpful (esp. post #56). Thank you very much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Silent H, posted 12-12-2003 7:53 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2003 12:28 AM The Ninja Monkey has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 80 of 84 (72790)
12-14-2003 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by The Ninja Monkey
12-13-2003 3:16 PM


quote:
I guess I'm not quite as inclined to a young earth as I was before. I suppose that now forces me to reinterprate the Bible, and I don't want to do that right now.
If it helps any, just remember that this same thing was very hard for a lot of people to do around 500 years ago.
Back then... if taken literally... the Bible DEMANDS that the sun goes around the earth. If you have no problem believing the earth goes around the sun instead, then you are already half way there... you believe that everything in the Bible is NOT literal.
Not taking everything literal doesn't mean thinking the Bible is wrong (does the earth going around the sun affect your faith at all?), it just means the people insisting every word must be THEIR interpretation are wrong.
Maybe you should ask you teacher why evolution and an OE should be thought of as wrong, if in the past Xians came to understand the earth goes around the sun. How are evolution and OE different from heliocentrism?
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by The Ninja Monkey, posted 12-13-2003 3:16 PM The Ninja Monkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-14-2003 12:55 AM Silent H has replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 81 of 84 (72798)
12-14-2003 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Silent H
12-14-2003 12:28 AM


Not that I don't agree with the message, but...
quote:
How are evolution and OE different from heliocentrism?
Well, the Genesis creation story does seem to be a little more explicit than where ever the geocentricism idea came from. Still, for being so important, the Genesis story sure seems to skimp on the details.
And by common observation, the sun sure does look to go around the earth.
By the way, a nice non "militant athiestic" response .
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2003 12:28 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Silent H, posted 12-14-2003 2:20 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 82 of 84 (72852)
12-14-2003 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Minnemooseus
12-14-2003 12:55 AM


quote:
seem to be a little more explicit than where ever the geocentricism idea came from
I'd have to dig around to find the Biblical quote, but that one is pretty specific that God stopped the sun from moving (around the earth). The point being one doesn't have to take that literally and He could have done whatever it takes to stop the sun from moving according to our vantage point.
(coincidentally I just watched "Inherit the Wind" where this same argument was brought up by Spencer Tracy to some creationist).
Likewise in Genesis, the terms could be metaphors for actions. And since they are so skimpy on details they could mean anything.
And that's if you have to believe it was written by God instead of men. (Question to anyone: does it say anywhere in the Bible that this is the writing of God and not simply of men... who may be fallible on specifics? Who was genesis told to?).
quote:
by common observation, the sun sure does look to go around the earth.
One thing I found really cool at the Adler Planetarium is that in their history of Astronomy section they make this very point. Everyone ought to be very sympathetic towards geocentric theorists. It worked as a theory (even in astronomical predictions) for a long time.
What it took is some interesting brainwork to create the alternative model and then scientifically collecting data which could decide between the two models.
One may mention that people thought the orbits were perfect circles (and why not?) until observations and predictions based on alternate models showed orbits were no less than perfect, even if less than circular.
I guess all of this comes down to scientists learning to set aside one set of observations, to include input from new vantage points, and not worrying about what model should be called "perfect".
quote:
By the way, a nice non "militant athiestic" response
Thanks... I am trying very hard to be a good boy these days. Uhhhhm, I guess I'm assuming you weren't being sarcastic, and were really complimenting me.
Hopefully this post doesn't make me seem more militaristic.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-14-2003 12:55 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

sailorstide
Junior Member (Idle past 5026 days)
Posts: 18
From: Los Angeles,California,USA
Joined: 04-30-2006


Message 83 of 84 (308132)
05-01-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Ninja Monkey
12-08-2003 4:54 PM


What most theologians believe
It is widely known amongst most Christian religions that Adam existed around 4,000 BC and that this world in the creational sense is just around 6,000 years old. Although Biblical history is just 6,000 years old from Adam till now we must consider that Adam did not live with the dinosaurs that for the last 140 years have been discovered in various places on this earth. One must understand more than just regular Christian thought when discussing Gods purposes for this worlds existence and his work which has been going on for some several hundreds of millions of years.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 05-01-2006 08:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Ninja Monkey, posted 12-08-2003 4:54 PM The Ninja Monkey has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 84 of 84 (310335)
05-08-2006 2:50 PM


Old topic - Closing down
This topic was started 12/8/03, concerning a classroom young Earth vs. old Earth debate. Prior to 5/1/06, all messages had been that same month.
I have added "(Re: A young Earth/old Earth classroom debate)" to the topic title. Now time to close this one down.
Adminnemooseus

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