The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

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It takes a lot of spiritual study and experience to begin to understand most of it . and it worries me when people whitewash it because that just lulls them into complacency when they should be concerned about their own future.

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Exactly, but the kicker is, whitewash can hide a good fence as well as a bad one.Even in the military a soldier has the right to disobey an unlawful order and if I’m going to be held accountable for my actions, then I need to know that I’m basing my actions on the right information.When a preacher or evangelist says something that is off center from what is written in my own language, then I start to investigate.As I investigate and find that translations of my Holy Writings vary greatly, then I investigate deeper. I note mistranslations.As I dig deeper into the foundation and divest the writings as much as possible of modern thinking, I can see a glimpse of what the authors were truly saying to their immediate audience.From that foundation I can review traditions and see what is necessary and what isn’t. That foundation allows me to discern if a preacher or evangelist is proclaiming something I must follow or not.When I get to final judgment, I really don’t want my last words to be, “I was just following orders.” Even if the orders are unlawful, I’m still responsible for my actions.So with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I will continue to unearth the foundation of spirituality.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I believe there will be special bodies. Scripture tells us that believers will be transformed into the kind of body Jesus had when he walked through walls and yet ate fish with the disciples after His resurrection. Not a physical body, a spiritual body and yet a body, not a ghost. And not a physical fire either, but a spiritual fire -- that burns forever.Love does not tolerate wickedness {abe: at least not forever, I should add; and real wickedness - criminal harm, sociopathic behavior - not at all ever}. The kind of love people hold up to accuse God with is not true love, it's a sappy sentimental thing that doesn't grasp the heinousness of sin and evil. True love exalts purity and goodness and purges or punishes wickedness. And all of us are given the choice of being purged by Jesus' sacrifice, or punished. I have no wish for anyone to be tormented either. The thought does something awful to my stomach when I wonder if I am really saved or the people I care about won't make it. This is why Christians are always being so obnoxious about telling people how to be saved from the torment.What people are missing in their human level of compassion is the extreme ugliness and offensiveness of sin / wickedness in God's eyes. We don't see as He sees, but when we face Him in judgment suddenly it will all become only too clear. In a sense God won't need to act to condemn anyone, as sin will be self-condemning because it's simply contrary to everything God is. Sin can't be in His presence for that reason, will practically flee His presence of its own volition. There is a mutual hatred between sin or the fallen nature and God. Or another way to think about it: it is the moral Law that runs the universe that will condemn.God's compassion sent His son to die for us. There will be no way around this in the end. You won't be able to say He lacked compassion since He did the utmost to spare you and you refused it and did nothing but accuse Him and complain about Him despite His provision for your salvation.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-09-2006 06:34 PM

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As I dig deeper into the foundation and divest the writings as much as possible of modern thinking, I can see a glimpse of what the authors were truly saying to their immediate audience.

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Excellent.
Modern thinking and habitual errors promoted for purpose.

I believe the reason is that humans were created in the image of God, i.e. as eternal beings as is God. We are not brute unintelligent animals which die like dogs. We have an eternal soul which, once created cannot cease to exist. Adam and Eve were created perfect. Satan also was created perfect. Satan and his rebel angels chose to rebel/disobey. Satan coerced Adam and Eve to rebel/disobey also. Thus the fall and thus the need for sacrificial redemption for reconcillation to God. The price was great, i.e. death of God's son, Jesus. Thus the punishment great also for rejection of God's redemption.Having said the above, I don't like a fiery hell. I hate to think of anyone going to such a place of eternal torment. Being a selfish soul, I decided a long time ago that I wasn't going to chance the possibility of going to such a place, so I received the redemption via Jesus, the savior. I'm totally convinced that now I needn't worry. I have peace with God. I fear God with a great sense of respect and awe for the creator and manager of the universe.I hope I'm wrong about hell, but being a fundamentalist who takes God's words at face value, I fear that the Bible means what it says about eternal torment. That had a lot to do with my conversion in the first place and it has a lot to do with keeping me on the narrow path that leads to life and keeping me from doing evil. In the meantime I find that life works well by applying all the Biblical principles, including the remedy for the hell fire problem.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

In the Jewish religion, that is what a common view of 'Ghennna'.The belief of some Jews is that after that souls are purified for up to a year. They then go to heaven. If they are so corrupt as to be unable to be redeemed, they are granted oblivation.Some jews do believe in an eternal hell, but the afterlife is not particuarly well defined in Judiasm.

revisedThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-10-2006 12:27 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-10-2006 08:10 AM

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DorfMan,

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To those of us who you have turned over to the Holy Spirit for correction on the matter of Annhilation, I wonder.

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Should I expect that the Holy Spirit will change my Bible from:

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" ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" to read instead " ... and they will [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever?"

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Is that how I will know when the Holy Spirit has corrected me? Or will the Holy Spirit change my Bible to read " .. and they will be [annhilated] day and night forever and ever"?

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I will keep checking my Bible to see if the Holy Spirit, whose work you cannot do, has changed Revelation 14:10 to read "And the smoke of their torment goes up, [BUT NOT] forever and ever"

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If that happens then I'll know that the "work" which only the Spirit can do to cause me to disbelieve in eternal torment in the lake of fire, must have taken place.

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In the mean time the Holy Spirit is impressing me with these words:

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"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this scroll.

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And if anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this scroll" (Rev. 22:18,19)

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I did not expect condescension, but accept it.
Thank you.

Thank you for Message 198.It is interesting to note that although Rev 14:10-11 reads: When we clear out preconceived ideas and actually read as we do any other book, we see that it is the smoke that goes up "forever", not the torment.Again while Revelation 20:10 states: When we clear out the preconceived ideas, we see that it is the devil, the beast, and the false prophet (all singular) who will be tormented "forever".I haven't looked deeper into the ages of ages or age of ages thing yet, but if it is an accurate translation and reading of the phrasing, then all these come to an end at the final judgment. I still don't see torment being handed out at final judgment.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I'm sorry for that tone but ... did you think that I expected the insinuation that I was resistent to the work of the Holy Spirit?

DorfMan,You say that the correction I need can only come from the work of the Holy Spirit. In cases of the truth of the Bible this is true.
But it is as if I should expect that the Holy Spirit will change my Bible from:" ... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" to read instead " ... and they will [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever?"Similialy, it is as if I should expect this change: " .. and they will be [annhilated] day and night forever and ever"?Or that I should expect Revelation 14:10 to read "And the smoke of their torment goes up, [BUT NOT] forever and ever"In the mean time the Holy Spirit is impressing me with these words:"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this scroll.

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And if anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this scroll" (Rev. 22:18,19)

There was a good sermon that I heard today here called The Rich Man and the Beggar (1). You may find it interesting.

Purpledawn writes: If their torment stops then any further ascending smoke is NOT the smoke of their torment.Furthermore, we are explicitly told in no uncertain terms - " ... and they have no rest day and night". There is no hint of cessation of suffering.In Matthew 25:46 the Greek word AIONIOS carries the force of not temporal. As we can see that AIONIOS is made the opposite of temporal in Second Corinthians 4:18:"The things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" The AIONIOS - eternal punishment is as non-temporal in Matthew 25:46 as the AIONIOS - eternal fire of Matthew 25:41. It is logical then that as long as the smoke of their torment ascends their torment also continues in Revelation 14:11.Concerning Rev. 20:10 Purpledawn seems to finally have to make an admition of never ending tormenting punishment: She gives no idea why the result should not be the same for those in Revelation 20:15 - "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." We were already warned about the "ANYONE" in Revelation 14:9 -"And another angel ...saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented ..."What reason does Purpledawn give that the "ANYONE[s]" of 14:9 and 20:15 should have a different experience from the "they" of the beast, the false prophet, and the devil of 20:10 ?Then Purpledawn closes her comment here with this: But to her and other Annhilationists who appear to be interested in what the Bible really teaches concerning eternal punishment, I refer to the words of G.H. Lang - This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-10-2006 10:08 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-10-2006 10:11 AM

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I did not expect condescension, but accept it.
Thank you.

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I'm sorry for that tone but ... did you think that I expected the insinuation that I was resistent to the work of the Holy Spirit?

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?????????????
No, I expected you to understand that I cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit. Since you did not, I apologize for the impression.
I cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit. Once I have done all I can, I step aside and let Him continue by Himself. It's standard procedure for me.

Okay.But I would like you to know that if I could justify Annhilation from the word, part of me might even prefer to. But I cannot.As I see it if there is any possibility of hope for those whose names are not recorded in the book of life, I don't think God has told us. And I do believe that God has not told us many things which at this time it is not our business to know. I know you see it differently.Please go over to the coffee house for a minute. I'd like to know what it is about Davies's music you like so much.

I think there are definite "possibilities of hope". Two that come to mind are:

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2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

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No mention of having to be recorded in the "book of life".

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