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Author Topic:   Proving God's Existence Undermines Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 134 (311288)
05-11-2006 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by lfen
05-11-2006 11:19 PM


Reincarnation doesn't particular interest me but it is a belief for many Hindu's and Buddhists.
Yes, but reincarnation is only one aspect of what I was addressing. The main topic is the concept of Karma, a moral law by which all human beings are judged.
For Buddhism particularly it's a bit of a puzzle as to what incarnates. I've read the problem stated in the form of the Buddha talking about a candle lit at the beginning of the night and towards the end as it's about to go out another candle is lit from the flame. The question is then asked is the second candle's flame the same as the first?
Yes, well there are different Buddhist concepts and I don't know either, but in some discussions I read years ago it was clear that there are hells where individuals go and they do suffer before returning to another earthly life.
Karma is a generalization of observations about cause and effect. Again as to Buddhism the wheel of birth and death is also a generalization about cause and effect.
OK, but MORAL cause and effect. All I'm trying to get at is the MORAL idea in connection with karma, and in connection with nirvana as the cessation of suffering which is the consequence of bad karma.
When I was in college my paper on comparing and contrasting Dante's Inferno and Purgatory was about the psychology of giving up vs. struggling with temptations.
Give up and go on sinning then, just don't fight it?
I still think this so called moral flaw of not recoginizing the God who made you is a threat wielded by priests to control their congregations whether they be ancient Jews, medieval Catholics, or modern Calvinists, Muslims, or Mormons, etc. On those grounds I have no respect for the argument at all.
I would think not, but you also have no grounds for these grounds, just your dislike of such teaching. Control for what purpose one might ask. Strange motivation.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2006 12:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by lfen, posted 05-11-2006 11:19 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by lfen, posted 05-11-2006 11:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 134 (311290)
05-11-2006 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
05-11-2006 11:32 PM


Re: That's where revelation comes in
Thought I was instructing you, not assuming it.
OK, I see your point. We were talking about Calvinist doctrine, and then I made a sudden switch to a philosophical question.
OR, maybe we're not talking about believing a PROPOSITION, but believing the testimony of people who claim to have witnessed evidence of God.
Does it then become a moral matter?
I don't think so. If somebody really believes something, he can hardly be morally condemned for that. If he was only pretending to believe, that would be a moral matter, I think.
Maybe I'll start a new topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 11:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 11:46 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 134 (311292)
05-11-2006 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by robinrohan
05-11-2006 11:44 PM


Re: That's where revelation comes in
Maybe I'll start a new topic.
I have a proposition on the board trying to get this discussion off this thread, and I'd rather it was your topic, because it's really your thinking we're trying to deal with here. If mine is OK as is, or would be with a few modifications, email me about how to change it. Or go ahead and start one and I'll withdraw mine.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-11-2006 11:47 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by robinrohan, posted 05-11-2006 11:44 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 05-11-2006 11:50 PM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 134 (311296)
05-11-2006 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
05-11-2006 11:46 PM


Re: That's where revelation comes in
I have a proposition on the board
What? Where?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 11:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 11:52 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 134 (311298)
05-11-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by robinrohan
05-11-2006 11:50 PM


Re: That's where revelation comes in
Sorry, should have included the link:
http://EvC Forum: Is belief in God a moral or factual matter? -->EvC Forum: Is belief in God a moral or factual matter?
Wasn't happy with it as is anyway, just wanted to get this side issue off this thread. So if it's too far from what you have in mind, please start your own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 05-11-2006 11:50 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by robinrohan, posted 05-12-2006 12:01 AM Faith has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 126 of 134 (311299)
05-11-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
05-11-2006 11:41 PM


OK, but MORAL cause and effect. All I'm trying to get at is the MORAL idea in connection with karma, and in connection with nirvana as the cessation of suffering which is the consequence of bad karma.
Agreed, one of the most important emphasis in the teaching of karma was the moral instruction. Karma could result in suffering and pleasure. Nirvana is not pleasure, nor is the Bliss the the Hindu's speak about pleasure.
Yes, well there are different Buddhist concepts and I don't know either, but in some discussions I read years ago it was clear that there are hells where individuals go and they do suffer before returning to another earthly life
Popular Buddhism certainly teaches about Heavens, Hells, and Pure Buddha lands. One can be a Buddhist without having to believe in them literally. There are a couple of Buddhist sects that require literal beliefs but they are far from mainstream or orthodox.
Give up and go on sinning then, just don't fight it?
I wrote that over 40 years ago and that is about all I remember about it. What I did was take the first circles of hell and the first circles of purgatory and contrast and compare them. The people in hell didn't try to improve or understand what they did wrong. The people in purgatory did. Like in hell they just suffered their lust without understanding whereas in purgatory they lusted but tried to improve.
The Inferno is the most memorable of Dante's trilogy but it was no Lord of the Rings. I read Tolkien at about the same time and have much fonder memories of his books.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 05-12-2006 07:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 11:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 134 (311302)
05-12-2006 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
05-11-2006 11:52 PM


Re: That's where revelation comes in
That's fine.
The sermon by Edwards I was referring to earlier is entitled "A Divine and Holy Light."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 11:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 05-12-2006 12:11 AM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 134 (311307)
05-12-2006 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by robinrohan
05-12-2006 12:01 AM


Re: That's where revelation comes in
The sermon by Edwards I was referring to earlier is entitled "A Divine and Holy Light."
Is it the same as A Divine and SUPERNATURAL Light?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by robinrohan, posted 05-12-2006 12:01 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by robinrohan, posted 05-12-2006 12:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 134 (311315)
05-12-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
05-12-2006 12:11 AM


Re: That's where revelation comes in
That's it, and here's one of his most important points. He was very careful to try to distinguish between imaginary religious experiences and the real thing--which is something I respect about him:
This spiritual and divine light does not consist in any impression made upon the imagination. It is no impression upon the mind, as though one saw anything with the bodily eyes. It is no imagination or idea of an outward light or glory, or any beauty of form or countenance, or a visible luster or brightness of any object. The imagination may be strongly impressed with such things; but this is not spiritual light. Indeed when the mind has a lively discovery of spiritual things, and is greatly affected by the power of divine light, it may, and probably very commonly doth, much affect the imagination; so that impressions of an outward beauty or brightness may accompany those spiritual discoveries. But spiritual light is not that impression upon the imagination . . .
A far cry from the TV preachers of today.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 05-12-2006 07:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 05-12-2006 12:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 130 of 134 (311332)
05-12-2006 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by robinrohan
05-11-2006 11:37 PM


Oh wretched man that I am - who will save me from this body of death?
Wretchedness does not mean necessarily that there's some answer.
No. But wretchedness is not a dishonest position to arrive at were one to take a good hard look at themselves. And wretchedness is what makes a man cry out for an answer when all the pseudo-answers; drugs, philosophy, career, sex, Religion, money, hobbies, wife, goods... have shown themselves to be what they are. Hollow, incomplete answers.
If he cries out in the direction of God, not in self-focused pity but in honest acknowledgement of what he has become before an unknown Holy God, and asks for an answer then an answer he will receive. Its called mercy.
And why wouldn't he do it? Afterall, all such a man has to lose at that point is his pride. Pride: the very last thing he clutches to - not realising that giving that up will result in his death. And his immediate re-birth.
But if a man never arrives at the point of knowing that he is wretched then he has only himself to blame. He has refused to accept the facts about himself namely:
IF Holy God THEN wretched.
IF wretched THEN possibly Holy God
A possible answer. And only pride standing in the way of him finding out. His own pride. The very deadliest of sins. The root of all sin. The very first sin.
This message has been edited by iano, 12-May-2006 10:15 AM
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 05-12-2006 07:53 AM

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 Message 120 by robinrohan, posted 05-11-2006 11:37 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by RickJB, posted 05-12-2006 7:02 AM iano has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 131 of 134 (311339)
05-12-2006 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by iano
05-11-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Abba: Knowing me knowing you
What you call 'knowing' re: knowing god, is what's flawed. It's a flawed concept to assert that 'knowing' holds certainty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 05-11-2006 12:26 PM iano has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 132 of 134 (311340)
05-12-2006 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by iano
05-12-2006 5:15 AM


Re: Oh wretched man that I am - who will save me from this body of death?
Hey Iano,
I'm not arguing with what you say, but I am at a loss to understand it.
If there is a supreme being, why should he judge our ethics or our mental well-being at all? Why should we expect him to sit in judgment of us? Most of all, why would you want God to be such a petty, vindictive, self-righteous and humourless creature?
One conclusion that I come to is that a judgmental God is a convenient social and political tool used by humans on humans...
No God has spoken to me or declared His will to me, so I have no desire to consider him in my daily life. Furthermore, why should I submit to the will and judgment of any entity with regard to my ultimate value as a human being?
I live for myself and for the people I love. I refuse to be threatened by and live my life in fear of some God-tyrant! Speaking bluntly, as far as I'm concerned a judgmental God can just go stick his self-righteous posturing and his threats of eternal hell!
Guess that books my place in Hell! ;-)
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 05-12-2006 07:52 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 05-12-2006 5:15 AM iano has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 133 of 134 (311348)
05-12-2006 7:48 AM


Red Alert - Off Topic
Stop Please stop all off-topic discussion.
The topic is: Proving God's Existence Undermines Faith
Since the OP is short, I'm reposting it here.
OP-kuresu writes:
This thought occurred to me recently, and its a new subject matter for me, so please be patient.
On the attempt of creationists (and some IDers) to discredit evolution and prove the existence of God:
As far as I know, the existence of God is based on faith. Faith being that you believe in what you can't see or prove, e.g. blind trust.
It would seem to me that those trying to prove God's existence have a weakness in faith. The reasoning here is: if they have to have proof that God exists in order to believe in Him, or in order to stregthen their belief in Him, they are undermining the concept of faith.
As physical proof or evidence (the type science is concerned with and the creationists use to prove His existence) does not require faith, and if one must have this proof for one's faith, then does this not undermine their faith?
Kudos to Faith for trying, at least twice that I saw, to stop the off topic discussion.
If the off-topic discussion continues, the thread will be given an appropriate timeout closure.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Thank you

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by RickJB, posted 05-12-2006 9:28 AM AdminPD has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 134 of 134 (311365)
05-12-2006 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by AdminPD
05-12-2006 7:48 AM


Re: Red Alert - Off Topic
Sorry boss!
Just an observation, not meant as a change of subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by AdminPD, posted 05-12-2006 7:48 AM AdminPD has not replied

  
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