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sidelined writes:
Oh yeah! If we KNEW there was a GOD without doubt then we would live in peace and enjoy the garden of eden right?
In your dreams I suspect if he gave full revelation of himself with us in our current state then widespread insanity would follow. For people would have reason to despair. For they cannot live the life demanded by a holy God.
Exactly which demand is that? These ones?
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exd 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exd 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exd 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exd 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exd 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exd 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exd 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exd 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.
Exd 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
Exd 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Exd 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exd 20:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God [was].
Exd 20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
Exd 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
Exd 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
Exd 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Exd 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon
Perhaps these ones here
If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
Exd 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
Exd 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
Exd 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exd 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exd 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
Exd 21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
Exd 21:9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
Exd 21:10 If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Exd 21:11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
Exd 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Exd 21:13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver [him] into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
Exd 21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
Exd 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exd 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Exd 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Exd 21:18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with [his] fist, and he die not, but keepeth [his] bed:
Exd 21:19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote [him] be quit: only he shall pay [for] the loss of his time, and shall cause [him] to be thoroughly healed.
Exd 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exd 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he [is] his money.
Exd 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
Exd 21:23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exd 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exd 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exd 21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
Exd 21:27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Exd 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox [shall be] quit.
Exd 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
Exd 21:30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.
Exd 21:31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.
Exd 21:32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
Exd 21:33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
Exd 21:34 The owner of the pit shall make [it] good, [and] give money unto the owner of them; and the dead [beast] shall be his.
Exd 21:35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead [ox] also they shall divide.
Exd 21:36 Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.
If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
Exd 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, [there shall] no blood [be shed] for him.
Exd 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, [there shall be] blood [shed] for him; [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
Exd 22:4 If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.
Exd 22:5 If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.
Exd 22:6 If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed [therewith]; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.
Exd 22:7 If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.
Exd 22:8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.
Exd 22:9 For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another] challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exd 22:10 If a man deliver unto his neighbour an ass, or an ox, or a sheep, or any beast, to keep; and it die, or be hurt, or driven away, no man seeing [it]:
Exd 22:11 [Then] shall an oath of the LORD be between them both, that he hath not put his hand unto his neighbour's goods; and the owner of it shall accept [thereof], and he shall not make [it] good.
Exd 22:12 And if it be stolen from him, he shall make restitution unto the owner thereof.
Exd 22:13 If it be torn in pieces, [then] let him bring it [for] witness, [and] he shall not make good that which was torn.
Exd 22:14 And if a man borrow [ought] of his neighbour, and it be hurt, or die, the owner thereof [being] not with it, he shall surely make [it] good.
Exd 22:15 [But] if the owner thereof [be] with it, he shall not make [it] good: if it [be] an hired [thing], it came for his hire.
Exd 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Exd 22:17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
Exd 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exd 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
Exd 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Exd 22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Exd 22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
Exd 22:23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
Exd 22:24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
Exd 22:25 If thou lend money to [any of] my people [that is] poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Exd 22:26 If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down:
Exd 22:27 For that [is] his covering only, it [is] his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep? and it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear; for I [am] gracious.
Exd 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Exd 22:29 Thou shalt not delay [to offer] the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
Exd 22:30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, [and] with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.
Exd 22:31 And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat [any] flesh [that is] torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs.
Would you care to point out the ones that you choose to ignore or do you actually follow all of these?
sidelined writes:
Adam and Eve walked with God and even obeyed his edict to not eat of the fruit of the tree of KOGAE until he allowed a snake to con eve and thus allow for the "fall" of men and the subsequent long journey etc etc etc.
God telling them what not to do (a pull in one direction) and....vacuuum. Nothing to pull them in the opposite direction. This is not choice. Choice only becomes choice when the pull (attraction) in either direction is perfectly balanced. The serpent fulfilled that role. God says vs the serpent says. Man, for the first time, had choice. And he exercised it.
So you are saying that God needed the serpent to tempt Eve into partaking of the fruit which she clearly had not partaken of as per her statement
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
At this point she has no knowledge of good and evil and is innocent and obeying of the command given to her.She cannot therefore concieve that the serpent is lying to her since this is an evil act. Would you seriously do this to a child of yours? Under any circumstances?
I don't think so. God created free willed beings and they exercised their will. I fail to see how some of the alternatives you put up would enable this. God taking them aside for instance and fully explaining (nay showing them) what the full consequences would be would have been unfair - unless some other equally powerful attraction in the opposite direction was allowed to arise. Balanced it had to be.
How do you suppose it would be unfair? Would you care to explain to me what possible threat the two of them could pose to God by eating of the tree of KOGAE and why disobeying under coersion when incapable of discerning a good act from a bad one and exercising free will that they were imbued with by God is a problem?
God took the chance himself and then is furious when his creation excercises the freewill that they must be
allowed to make in order for it to be balanced as you say.The imperfection that they demonstrated by the act of choosing is ultimately with God and if God has a problem he should discuss the responsibilty for it with a mirror.
Would you fancy relationships with folk who had no choice but to obey you? Not much fun in that after the novelty wore off. Not much chance for love to flourish either.
I would not punish them for making the choice to disobey since I am the one who created them and set the conditions up. If I throw a party where I allow the people the option of drinking and driving or me paying for cab fair home and then ply them with liquor I cannot therefore wash my hands of responsibilty for any subsequent tragedy that may follow,nor can I chastise them for making the choice that I allowed them.
Maybe you can think of how to create fully free willed beings without them being able to chose against you? If you could, it would strenghten your position.
I would allow them to do as they pleased since after all there is no damage they can do that I cannot undo in the first place if I am limitless in abilty and power.
So here is the edict I would place on them. You are free to do whatever you wish to do as long as it does not interfere with the freewill choice of another human being. This is my only rule and if you do not like it,oh well, deal with it.Screw with my rule and I will make your eyes bubble in their sockets.Any questions? Good! Carry on.
The reason your an atheist is that you have not compelling proof that satisfies you that God exists. God cannot give you compelling evidence against you free will - that would destroy your free-will in the process of him giving it. Resolution of the paradox seems to me only to be possible if you willing lay aside you free will (its yours to do with as you please). Then he can show you.
No the reason I am an atheist is that the idea of a god is not sensible in the first place.There is indeed not only no compelling evidence there is no evidence at all. The impression I have always recieved from believers is that the concept of a God is a means of dodging resposibilty for the questionable inclinations and impulses that we attend to in our short lives.
I think this is why the Christian religion is so popular. Just first beleive that christ died for you and all those crimes you commited are forgiven. How comforting and how coercive.Almost a temptation I would think.
If I were to be a believer in the bible it is my considered opinion that the lesson of the offer of christ to lay your sins upon him is biblical God's way of weeding out the people willing to sacrifice another person to avoid accepting responsibilty. These people would not be allowed in heaven since this is a despicable thing to do to the innocent and if you would do something so selfish then it is plain that love of others is not something you are capable of. This is a subtle test of mortals worthy of a moral God methinks..
Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.
Best wishes, Richard Feynman.
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