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Author Topic:   Why Atheists don't believe
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5389
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 31 of 310 (311424)
05-12-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by riVeRraT
05-12-2006 8:28 AM


Re: Why I believe
If you guys can believe in love, then you can believe in God.

But why would I want to? Some particular imaginary Sky Guy out of a selection of a few thousand Sky Guys, none with any evidence? My wife has hung around with me for 36 years now, through a couple of real tough spots - I have that evidence that she actually cares a little bit about me, and I care about her. It doesn't take any "belief in love" at all.


This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 32 of 310 (311434)
05-12-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by sidelined
05-12-2006 11:32 AM


Firstly I have never heard an explanation of the divine that did not involve a belief first evidence second. This is precisely the situation we require of a person to avoid critical thinking

Believing is seeing is another way to put it. Seeing first will result in us believing alright. But is plays merry hell with your free will to reject belief. It would make you an automaton.

Trust him or be compelled to believe he exists. If God exists then one or the other you will do. "Every knee will bow and every toungue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". Some will have done so willingly - others will be forced to admit it. But confess we all shall. One way or the other.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 4090 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 33 of 310 (311436)
05-12-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-11-2006 8:24 AM


Reasons for not believing
1. Why don't you believe in the divine?

I have not encountered a persuadable case to believe.

2. Do you believe in anything without evidence?

Yes. Everyday I believe some things without evidence, because I believe some things that other people say. My belief is based upon their verbal track record.
However, when someone is asking me to change the very way I live my daily life, such as Christianity or Islam, that is too big of a leap in faith without evidence.
This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 310 (311448)
05-12-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by sidelined
05-12-2006 12:13 PM


Only if it is accompanied by a compelling arguement involving either a great evidentiary and logical reasoning or a weapon bigger than any in my arsenal.

You must be a busy guy, having to go over all that evidence in every field.


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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 310 (311562)
05-12-2006 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by iano
05-12-2006 2:43 PM


iano

sidelined writes:

Firstly I have never heard an explanation of the divine that did not involve a belief first evidence second. This is precisely the situation we require of a person to avoid critical thinking

Believing is seeing is another way to put it. Seeing first will result in us believing alright.

I am sorry but perhaps you can rephrase this since, as it stands, these two statements contradict one another.

Trust him or be compelled to believe he exists. If God exists then one or the other you will do.

Well this is indeed the crux of the matter is it not? How do we then explain, in my case, why I require that the existance of something so contradictory to experience be amenable to observation before I trust that such a condition actually applies in the world and ,failing this ,how is it I have never be compelled to the belief that you speak of?

Every knee will bow and every toungue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

It seems I must contradict you on this score as much as you may believe otherwise. That Jesus was anything other than a vague demigod of convenience for a splinter cult 2000 years ago is not something that holds a great deal of conviction for myself.That the bible claims many things does not speak to the veracity of the tales.It is far more likely IMHO that the bible is no more nor less than other ancient texts in the stories it portrays and the teachings it tries to pass on. I consider it the equivalent of a present day fiction in which moral values of an author can be passed down in an entertaining form.

This message has been edited by sidelined, Sat, 2006-05-13 01:33 AM


Dear Mrs Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.

Best wishes, Richard Feynman.


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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 36 of 310 (311783)
05-14-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by sidelined
05-12-2006 7:33 PM


sidelined writes:

Firstly I have never heard an explanation of the divine that did not involve a belief first evidence second. This is precisely the situation we require of a person to avoid critical thinking

Your conclusion that the position "believing is seeing (the evidence)" was as you state above. But how could it be anything but believing is seeing? If one had the evidence first then one would have no choice but to believe - which causes the notion of free-will to evaporate.

"I have compelling evidence of God but I'm not going to believe he exists" is an illogical position to hold. Can you think of evidence which wouldn't require belief but wasn't so compelling so as to destroy free will not to believe? Not even God can do that.

{AbE} The above brings us to an apparent paradox. "I can't believe without evidence, he can't provide evidence without me believing". But God has a way around that.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 37 of 310 (311883)
05-15-2006 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by CK
05-12-2006 9:15 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
It's difficult for christians to understand this but their guy doesn't stand out in the crowd - they are pretty much of a muchness.

Oh, but He does. We are different from every other religion in that we are saved by faith. That's what believing is all about.

This is not intended as an insult but from my perspective it comes across is like asking us to open our heart to Captain America or Superman. I know it sounds insulting but honestly it's not meant to be, I'm just trying to explain the mindset I have.

OH, it's not an insult, and it was my mindset for a long time too.

Belief is not the default state.

I don't know about that one. Then neither is disbelief a default state. Everyone is born with a curiousity. It is what drives both scientists, and religious people to search for a truth. I don't think anyone has ever disagreed with me, that we are all born seeking the truth.

So when you are lying on the bed staring at the light bulb in the ceiling and wondering is something more to this life than just what I see around me, that's when you are wondering about God, and truth.


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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 38 of 310 (311884)
05-15-2006 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by kongstad
05-12-2006 10:38 AM


Sure, lots of things

Like what, and why?


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Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 39 of 310 (311885)
05-15-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 6:55 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
quote:
Oh, but He does. We are different from every other religion in that we are saved by faith. That's what believing is all about.

Sounds no different at all from any of the stuff the other peddlers are selling.

quote:
So when you are lying on the bed staring at the light bulb in the ceiling and wondering is something more to this life than just what I see around me, that's when you are wondering about God, and truth.

You have a point there but many of us have already looked at the christian version of God and have found him to be uninteresting/false/not convincing etc. So we might be thinking about a god but with many dead-ends already excluded.

The ones I "know" to be false include all the versions of the christian god I have encountered, the muslim version and various spin-offs. One of the other ones might present a more convincing case but I don't know what I don't know.

Edited by CK, : expanding on point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by riVeRraT, posted 05-15-2006 6:55 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 40 of 310 (311890)
05-15-2006 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 6:55 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
CK writes:

It's difficult for christians to understand this but their guy doesn't stand out in the crowd - they are pretty much of a muchness.

CK obviously hasn't Googled the word 'Jesus' and noted his foremost positon in sheer no. of pages compared to the others 'standing alongside him in the crowd'. That many pages ridicule him doesn't detract from his foremost position. Love him or hate him, stand out from the crowd he does

Neither has CK posed a person who could be considered to topple him from the position of being the most notable and studied person (or 'myth' if preferred) in human history.

Alexander the Great? Attila the Hun? Gandhi? Plato?


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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 41 of 310 (311892)
05-15-2006 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by EZscience
05-12-2006 11:25 AM


Re: Why I believe
Isn't it just a subjective manifestation of feelings that are a product of natural selection favoring the urge to propagate genes?

Maybe you should say that when you get married, instead of I love you.

But I could love a person that I do not wish to propagate with.

I am starting to have a problem with the word subjective. It would seem that all logical thinkers, and the scientific method seem to disregard anything that is subjective. But I feel there is a paradox. A subjective thought is objective, since it exists.


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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 42 of 310 (311893)
05-15-2006 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by CK
05-15-2006 7:00 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
You have a point there but many of us have already looked at the christian version of God and have found him to be uninteresting/false/not convincing etc.

What is the Holy Spirit?
What does it mean to be born again?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by CK, posted 05-15-2006 7:00 AM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 310 (311894)
05-15-2006 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by sidelined
05-12-2006 11:32 AM


Firstly I have never heard an explanation of the divine that did not involve a belief first evidence second.

I have "heard" of people in Africa with no knowledge of Christianity being called by God to do His work, there was no belief first.

And before you ask, why doesn't that happen here, it might be because we are already blessed with much. We are amoung the top 5% wealthiest in the world.

Having set the brain to believe we then proceed to "find" evidence to support the already accepted result.

I am well aware of post-hoc reasoning. In the Christian community, I see it all the time, and I am usually the one who spoils the party, when I introduce reality.

Hence the vast array of endless religious apologetics.

Yea, I used to be sorry that there are so many wrong paths to go down, but now I see the necessity of it all.

That said there is nothing that comes to mind that require a divine entity to be in order for such feelings to exist since these are ameanble to more mundane but no less wonderous explanations.

What kind of "wonderous explanation" defines hate? Hate without reason? (Just a thought)


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CK
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 44 of 310 (311896)
05-15-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 7:24 AM


Unsure of context - Holy Spirit/Born Again questions
quote:
What is the Holy Spirit?

It's one aspect of the Trinity along with the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus). It's of particular interests to followers of Trinitarian Christianity. Rastafarians seen it as a seperate thing that dwells inside people.

quote:
What does it mean to be born again?

It's a christian ritual which is tied with spiritual rebirth.

I'm not really sure where those questions are leading?

Is this one of those "don't think - you must feel things?"

That's the first thing that grifters (conmen) learn - apply to emotion.

Edited by CK, : Typo

Edited by CK, : adding further query?


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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 310 (311912)
05-15-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by CK
05-15-2006 7:34 AM


Re: Unsure of context - Holy Spirit/Born Again questions
It's one aspect of the Trinity along with the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus). It's of particular interests to followers of Trinitarian Christianity. Rastafarians seen it as a seperate thing that dwells inside people.

We believe it dwells inside us too.

Jesus sent it to be a guide in our lives. It's not an interest.

Perhaps study a bit more about it? There may be some misconceptions about it that you have.

It's a christian ritual which is tied with spiritual rebirth

I don't see it as a ritual. It is something that actual happens once you are blessed with the Holy spirit. I don't believe anyone can truely have a set of rules that can lead to judge if someone is born again or not.

For years, I called myself born again, because I thought that because I accepted Christ I was born again. God showed me different. It wasn't until He called me that I became born again, so I was kidding myself all those years.

I only asked you those question because you said you explored Christianinty. But I say there is still more to explore for you. I just want to encourage you to educate yourself more on it. It couldn't hurt you, you are impervious to being tricked.


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