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Author Topic:   Define faith?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 77 of 127 (30918)
01-31-2003 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by zipzip
01-31-2003 4:44 PM


quote:
In fact, if you look at the evolution of western Judeo-Christian society vs. the rest of the world, you will see that it has been the (traditionally) Biblically-centered West that has been the author of women's voting rights, rights to work outside the home, presence in fields such as medicine and academia. This is reflected in the makeup of the Christian church, where women have always taken a strong role (in most denominations) in leadership and teaching.
Earlier on in the thread, someone wrote that Christianity thrives on oppression, which could not be further from the truth. Christians wrote the Emancipation Proclamation, built the underground railroad, hid Jews during WWII Europe (Corrie ten Boom -- The Hiding Place) and opposed Hitler to the death (Dietrich Bonhoeffer). The heart of the Christian church has always been freedom -- freedom from sin, despair, and eternal death.
Christians also opposed voting rights for women, opposed women's right to work outside the home, and opposed their right to be educated and practice in male-dominated fields. (In fact, some still do this today) Christians also opposed the Emancipation Proclamation, opposed the underground railroad, supported slavery, gave up jews to the Nazis, and supported Hitler for the whole war.
Christian history is diverse, containing both good and bad.
However, in this thread, I am responding very specifically to claims about marriage and the role of women, made first by TB, and now by others.
TB said "Democratic equality is not the seed of identity that God births into women." in message #32.
Change the word "woman" in that sentence to "negro" or "colored" and you get something that sounds like an excerpt from a speech by Strom Thurmond.
Sure sounds like religiously-justified oppression to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by zipzip, posted 01-31-2003 4:44 PM zipzip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by zipzip, posted 02-01-2003 3:36 PM nator has replied

zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 127 (30970)
02-01-2003 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by nator
01-31-2003 11:02 PM


TB justification may be religiously based, but it is not Biblically based. In Genesis, Eve was taken from the side of Adam -- not his head or foot -- symbolic of her equality and importance. Likewise throughout the OT and NT, there are female figures upon which the whole history of the Jewish people hinged. Even Christ's ministry was begun through an interaction with a woman. Women have been important figures in the Christian church since its beginning.
As for people claiming to be Christians, then discarding Christ's teaching and doing evil things -- I think the claim can be reasonably made that these people are not "little Christs". The abolition movement was based on the teachings of Christ. The underground railroad was formed by people who took Christ seriously. The Nazis were a violently pagan political party/cult who abhorred Christianity, jailing and murdering those who spoke out against them. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of these Christians.
Compare that with the statistics of atheism/agnosticism --> how many millions dead in the past century? Lets count the ways ... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, numerous African regimes... Somewhere near 1 billion murdered. This is what "scientific rationalism" and atheism brings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by nator, posted 01-31-2003 11:02 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 9:06 AM zipzip has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 79 of 127 (31025)
02-02-2003 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by zipzip
02-01-2003 3:36 PM


quote:
TB justification may be religiously based, but it is not Biblically based. In Genesis, Eve was taken from the side of Adam -- not his head or foot -- symbolic of her equality and importance. Likewise throughout the OT and NT, there are female figures upon which the whole history of the Jewish people hinged. Even Christ's ministry was begun through an interaction with a woman. Women have been important figures in the Christian church since its beginning.
Was that at the same time they were considered chattel or after?
Look, I hear you on your particular interpretation of the role of women in Christianity and marriage, but if you disagree with TB's interpretation, then your argument is with him.
That's why religion is able to be used to justify anything; the people who are able to convince large numbers of other people that their particular version of things is the "correct" version get to tell everybody else who the "real" Christians are.
quote:
As for people claiming to be Christians, then discarding Christ's teaching and doing evil things -- I think the claim can be reasonably made that these people are not "little Christs". The abolition movement was based on the teachings of Christ. The underground railroad was formed by people who took Christ seriously. The Nazis were a violently pagan political party/cult who abhorred Christianity, jailing and murdering those who spoke out against them. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of these Christians.
I know some pagans who would bristle at that implication.
mmmm, there was a lot of Christianity and talk of "doing God's work" put out there by Hitler and the Nazis, although it was probably meant to manipulate more than anything.
quote:
Compare that with the statistics of atheism/agnosticism --> how many millions dead in the past century? Lets count the ways ... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, numerous African regimes... Somewhere near 1 billion murdered. This is what "scientific rationalism" and atheism brings.
I thought you said that the Nazis were pagan, not athiests? I don't think you can be both at the same time, so which is it?
The rest of your comparison is pure rubbish. How many people have been killed in the name of religion, or justified through religion? The Crusades, Ireland, Israel/Palesine, Ancient Rome and Greece, The Balkans, etc. etc.
We can count several thousand on 9/11 alone.
This kind of killing has been going on for centuries and is no different from the killings perpetrated by Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, and all the others you mention.
They are done in the name of one group feeling superior to another and deciding that the other group must be destroyed or converted.
Every single time some religious person does some horible act in the name of her God or religion, a bunch of others who share that religion say, "but they aren't 'real' *insert religion here*."
This excuse has been used to handwave away thousands of years of oppression and brutality performed in the name of religion, and it continues today.
I really don't think you want to try to compare history, because religion comes out looking pretty bad.
Religion thrived in the Dark Ages, and that should tell you something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by zipzip, posted 02-01-2003 3:36 PM zipzip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by zipzip, posted 02-03-2003 4:53 PM nator has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 127 (31079)
02-02-2003 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by nator
01-31-2003 9:46 AM


Schraf
However, if what you are saying is that God likes it that women submit to men in all things, well, then to me you are saying that God likes women to be kept without full adult standing in society.
But men are to sumbit to men so therefore we neither have 'full adult' standing in your view (of my view!). I don't want any rights above what God wants to give me! I (now) prefer reflecting my career/life decisions to other men and willingly weighing their advice. I'm convinced this is how life is meant to be. You may like the modern view of every family locked away in its castle. I hate that way now. I open my life to those I am accountable too. We open the upbringing of our children to our entire home Bible study group. I have been taken aside by others and had harsh things said to me for the good of my children:
Zech 13:6 If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body [2] ?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends'.
No-one is forcing anyone to do it! We have had the occasional wife leaving a husband on the issue. That is sad but a reality. We have had men moving to other churches. That is sad too but reality. Christ wept tears of blood over his call.
It really can't be spun in any way that makes it palatable.
Agreed until God opens our eyes to an even bigger world than we imagine in my experience.
Isn't it possible that this part of the Bible, like the parts about the monetary value of slaves and women, is just a cultural artifact from the days when women were considered less valuable than a cow, and that they are not relevant today?
It's possible but not consistent with the theme of Christ and his bride, the church or the manner in which I believe God is healing family relationships on this planet in my community.
Families in the west are in a terrible state. Children do not respect parents (for good reason). They grow up unteachable and insecuare and a significant amount enter into crime drugs and unhealthy consideration for the opposite sex. Society is a mess but the book of Malachi promises that one day 'the hearts of the fathers will turn to the children and the the hearts of the children will turn to the fathers'. That is what we believe the current move of God is and that the refomation of families and families of families is the way it will happen.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 02-02-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 01-31-2003 9:46 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 7:19 PM Tranquility Base has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 81 of 127 (31081)
02-02-2003 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tranquility Base
02-02-2003 7:00 PM


quote:
But men are to sumbit to men so therefore we neither have 'full adult' standing in your view (of my view!). I don't want any rights above what God wants to give me! I (now) prefer reflecting my career/life decisions to other men and willingly weighing their advice. I'm convinced this is how life is meant to be.
hmmm.
"Weighing their advice" doesn't sound like "submitting" to me.
It sounds like you are still ultimately making your own descision after seeking counsel.
quote:
You may like the modern view of every family locked away in its castle.
Huh? When did I say or imply that I liked that?
quote:
I hate that way now. I open my life to those I am accountable too. We open the upbringing of our children to our entire home Bible study group. I have been taken aside by others and had harsh things said to me for the good of my children:
But, ultimately, the decision on what to do is still yours.
There is a big difference between asking for and/or receiving advice, however harsh, and submitting to the will of another adult.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-02-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tranquility Base, posted 02-02-2003 7:00 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 02-02-2003 8:35 PM nator has replied
 Message 84 by Tranquility Base, posted 02-03-2003 12:56 PM nator has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 127 (31086)
02-02-2003 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by nator
02-02-2003 7:19 PM


schraf, I can definately see why this topic on Christian marriages makes no sense to you.
Please take this in to mind (if you haven't already), my wife is trusting that I am submitting to God. Trusting that I am trying to listen to the Holy Spirit and follow God's guidance on our lives. So she is ultimately submitting to God. Which is a heavy thought to me as a husband, as I am now accountable to God to make the right decisions for us.
In your case however, if you are submitting, it is submission to a man's will. Which I don't like the sound of either.
So in the context of a Christian marriage, I don't see a problem with the scripture pertaining to submission in a marriage. It is not a heiarchy (sp?) of the sexes.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 7:19 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 11:33 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 83 of 127 (31132)
02-03-2003 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by funkmasterfreaky
02-02-2003 8:35 PM


Why doesn't God want to talk to your wife? Doesn't he think she can understand him, or what?
And sorry, I really don't think you can separate submission and hierarchy. It goes like this, right?;
God
Males
Male children
Females
female children
OK, that's pretty OT. How about this for a modern version:
God
Males
Females
Children
Oh, and was I right? In the event that you and your wife have a disagreement, you always win?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 02-02-2003 8:35 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 02-03-2003 2:05 PM nator has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 127 (31144)
02-03-2003 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by nator
02-02-2003 7:19 PM


Schraf
Whether man or woman, submission is a weighing up. Everyone has the dignity of their own response. Sometimes advice is advice and sometimes advice is direction. It is up to the listener, whether man or woman, to respond appropriately. That is the difference between an adult Christian relationship and a child-like one. A child (of certain age) has no choice (but is age appropriately parented). An adult submits of their own free will.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 02-03-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 7:19 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 5:01 PM Tranquility Base has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 127 (31148)
02-03-2003 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by nator
02-03-2003 11:33 AM


You looked further into my post than you should have. In doing so drew faulty conclusions and missed the point.
Did I say God doesn't communicate with my wife? No I didn't.
In the event that my wife and I cannot agree on a decision, yes the decision falls on my shoulders.
A point at which I must be very careful, and spend more time in prayer, in case God is trying to speak to me through my wife.
If my wife is so opposed to a decision there must be a reason, right?
Here's the proper heiarchy,
God
us
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 02-03-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 11:33 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 5:16 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 127 (31168)
02-03-2003 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by nator
02-02-2003 9:06 AM


I think you are wrong. Religion is found if every human society, or at least has been until recently. Correlating atrocities with religion in that context is about as worthwhile as correlating it with grammatical language.
However, enforced atheistic societies are relatively new, so you can compare their fruit with what has gone on before --> brutal repression and murder in scale that has never, ever been seen before on the face of the planet. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao alone murdered 150 million people in the name of atheism. This is equivalent to the entire population of the world at the time of Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 9:06 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by shilohproject, posted 02-03-2003 5:16 PM zipzip has not replied
 Message 90 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 5:25 PM zipzip has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 127 (31169)
02-03-2003 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tranquility Base
02-03-2003 12:56 PM


quote:
Whether man or woman, submission is a weighing up. Everyone has the dignity of their own response. Sometimes advice is advice and sometimes advice is direction. It is up to the listener, whether man or woman, to respond appropriately. That is the difference between an adult Christian relationship and a child-like one. A child (of certain age) has no choice (but is age appropriately parented). An adult submits of their own free will.
OK, let me see if I understand.
Your wife has to listen to your direction and/or advice, because that's the way God wants it.
You don't neccessarily have to listen to you wife's advice, and she isn't supposed to direct you at all, because that's the way God wants it.
I am doing my best to make sense of what you are saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tranquility Base, posted 02-03-2003 12:56 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tranquility Base, posted 02-03-2003 7:11 PM nator has replied

shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 127 (31170)
02-03-2003 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by zipzip
02-03-2003 4:53 PM


Hey zip,
My take on all this violence and "inhumanity to man" is this: it is simply a condition of humanity, found in all belief environments, Christian, athiest, Muslim, or otherwise.
A recognized "faith" seems to mean absolutly nothing on a cultural scale. It was good so-called Christian folks, commissioned to convert the "heathen" of the New World, who wiped them out by the force of improved weaponry (Aztec), or small pox infected blankets (American Indians), etc., etc.
There are many examples of good conduct also, but that too is found across faith lines and must include Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists, as well as Christians.
-Shiloh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by zipzip, posted 02-03-2003 4:53 PM zipzip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Quetzal, posted 02-04-2003 8:27 AM shilohproject has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 127 (31171)
02-03-2003 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by funkmasterfreaky
02-03-2003 2:05 PM


quote:
You looked further into my post than you should have. In doing so drew faulty conclusions and missed the point.
mmm, it was a pretty direct implication, I thought, but no matter.
quote:
Did I say God doesn't communicate with my wife? No I didn't.
In the event that my wife and I cannot agree on a decision, yes the decision falls on my shoulders.
Why, if she is in communication with God, too?
quote:
A point at which I must be very careful, and spend more time in prayer, in case God is trying to speak to me through my wife.
Why would he be doing that? Why wouldn't he just tell you both the same thing? I'm not being flip here.
quote:
If my wife is so opposed to a decision there must be a reason, right?
Well, yes, but why not make the decision on what to do together instead of going away, having a man-to-man with God, and then coming back and telling her what the two of you decided?
quote:
Here's the proper heiarchy,
God
us
If that's the case, then you really aren't the head of your family, and you two are equal partners, each able to talk to God and both of you making descisions together, and working through disagreements together.
If you are the head of your family, then it has to be:
God
Man
Woman
In this scenario, when the two of you have disagreements, and because you have this apparent especially clear communication with God that is not bestowed upon your wife, you always win.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 02-03-2003 2:05 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 02-04-2003 1:04 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 90 of 127 (31173)
02-03-2003 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by zipzip
02-03-2003 4:53 PM


OK, fine, you win.
All religious people everywhere have always been extra good (except for the people who aren't/weren't "real" *insert religion here*) Of course, we only get to decide who the "not-real" religious people are well after they do something evil in the name of their God, firmly believing all the while that they are doing God's will.
All non-believers everywhere are evil murderers.
Yep, that's reality for sure.
Christians and the Moors had to ride on horseback to go kill the heathens, while Mao and Stalin had greater killing technology.
That makes the Christian and Moor atrocities that much better, it's true.
When you feel like addressing the points and examples I provide, let me know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by zipzip, posted 02-03-2003 4:53 PM zipzip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by zipzip, posted 02-04-2003 1:06 AM nator has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 127 (31181)
02-03-2003 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by nator
02-03-2003 5:01 PM


Schraf
The wife fascilitates the direction of the husband putting her uniqueness and talents into it and at times she may be crucial in advising a complete change in direction. (The Lord told Abraham 'listen to your wife'). But, yes, she is not democratic joint-head of the family.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 02-03-2003 5:01 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Chavalon, posted 02-04-2003 9:09 AM Tranquility Base has not replied
 Message 97 by nator, posted 02-04-2003 10:36 AM Tranquility Base has replied

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