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Author Topic:   Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 106 of 308 (311744)
05-14-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Quetzal
05-13-2006 8:19 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
My mistake, meant Of Pandas and People
{ABE - see what I mean, I just skimmed the book and my IQ just got lowered to the point I can't even get the title straight}
Edited by anglagard, : ego

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Quetzal, posted 05-13-2006 8:19 AM Quetzal has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 107 of 308 (311801)
05-14-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by anglagard
05-12-2006 10:16 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
Just got Panda's Thumb for the library since it is what caused so much consternation. A quick perusal indicates some people should be embarassed, it is just a dumbed-down anti-science book, kind of like a bunch of Chick tracts strung together.
Fer crissake, be more careful, will ya! I nearly burst a vein when I read this! Thank goodness the confusion was sorted out, or I woulda had to call in the men in white suits with big nets to take you to a happy place.
I did run across someone once on an evolution/creo forum board who thought Gould was a creo based on some of his quotes that this person had seen taken out of context in some creo nonsense or other. I did set him straight, but was rather amazed that anyone who knew anything about evolution didn't know who Gould was, and have a shrine to him in their living room. You know, like the catholics have with their revered figures. I offered to send him the little Gould figurine that I have in my garden, but he didn't seem interested.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by anglagard, posted 05-12-2006 10:16 PM anglagard has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 308 (311854)
05-15-2006 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by EZscience
05-12-2006 9:46 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
That's not one out of two - its zero.
Your opinion, which would deny the majority their beliefs in some countries, is much more zero than creation.
quote:
Pray tell what would you teach? "Goddidit" - that's it?
That's supposed to be some sort of explanation?
Yes. Far better than some minority belief that there is no God.
quote:
You are constitutionally free to spout that pathetic tripe in Sunday School, but you are not constitutionally free to label it as SCIENCE.
I assume you speak of the USA. I understand the majority is gagged there by your type. I suggest they shut down the public school system. It is worse than nothing.
quote:
Thankfully we still reserve that right for actual acredited scientists, although its questionable for how much longer that will remain the case in "Idiot America".
I wouldn't go that far, but I do shake my head how they tolerate such opressive little Godless opinions as yours.
quote:
Creationism is a simple-minded myth for simple-minded people - its not an explanation of anything.
It is an explanation of everything. Jesus has a place for the simple minded. Nothing wrong with that. All Christians are accredited, and overrule any little limited science credentials.
quote:
It's an excuse for NOT thinking hard about anything, ergo it appeals to those who have difficulty thinking hard about anything...
They naturally gravitate to the simpleton's non-explanation.
Thinking hard when wrong, and getting wronger doesn't help one. It is like beating the air. Calling people simpletons and simple minded is simply ccondesending balderdash. Not a good thing to be full of. Sorry this is news to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by EZscience, posted 05-12-2006 9:46 PM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 2:14 AM simple has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 109 of 308 (311862)
05-15-2006 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by simple
05-15-2006 12:56 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
I assume you speak of the USA. I understand the majority is gagged there by your type. I suggest they shut down the public school system. It is worse than nothing.
I don't know if you are familiar with the United States of America, but no citizen is gagged in expressing their opinions in accordance with the first amendment to the Constitution. I work for Howard County and the State of Texas, yet am a Spinoza Panthiest (1%<< of population), a member of the Libertarian Party (1%< of population), and a quite vocal critic of most government policy. Yet despite living in the Bible Belt, it is rare that I ever encounter anyone who would seek to silence me. This is because most Americans, despite their beliefs, basically support the Bill of Rights.
As to eliminating the public school system, it would be breaking the social contract, which requires an educated populace regardless of financial means, to sustain democracy.
I wouldn't go that far, but I do shake my head how they tolerate such opressive little Godless opinions as yours.
Please see above.
All Christians are accredited, and overrule any little limited science credentials.
Does that mean if one calls oneself a "christian" regardless of any understanding of the term, that they automatically overrule all of science. I believe you are preaching medievalism, with all the witch burnings, plagues, ignorant medical practices, endless religious wars, etc. Most current for-real Christians in this country (USA) do not support medievalism.
Calling people simpletons and simple minded is simply ccondesending balderdash.
That is nothing compared to the stupidity (destroying public education) and intolerance ("how they tolerate such opressive little Godless opinions") you are evidently supporting.
Additionally, as a veteran of the US Army, I have been and still am dedicated to provide for the economic prosperity and military effectiveness of this nation against all enemies foreign and domestic. Therefore I am against all efforts to diminish and/or destroy the economy and therefore the military viability of the United States through undermining public education.
Thinking hard when wrong, and getting wronger doesn't help one.
Indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 12:56 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:41 AM anglagard has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 308 (311863)
05-15-2006 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by anglagard
05-15-2006 2:14 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
I don't know if you are familiar with the United States of America, but no citizen is gagged in expressing their opinions in accordance with the first amendment to the Constitution. I work for Howard County and the State of Texas, yet am a Spinoza Panthiest (1%<< of population), a member of the Libertarian Party (1%< of population), and a quite vocal critic of most government policy. Yet despite living in the Bible Belt, it is rare that I ever encounter anyone who would seek to silence me. This is because most Americans, despite their beliefs, basically support the Bill of Rights.
The issue at hand is what is taught in schools, and the majority are Christians in the US. Yet they are gagged, and unable to stop other beliefs called science from being rammed down the throats of children. Did you really not know the context of this, or are you purposely diversionary?
quote:
As to eliminating the public school system, it would be breaking the social contract, which requires an educated populace regardless of financial means, to sustain democracy.
Where this imaginary contract conflicts with the majority beliefs, it should be flushed. As for democracy, a good start to getting the genuine article would be to respect the majority. This isn't Spinoza Panthiestism.
quote:
Does that mean if one calls oneself a "christian" regardless of any understanding of the term, that they automatically overrule all of science.
If they believe the bible, I am afraid so. But let's not forget science is not at issue, but the beliefs associated with it, regarding our orgins.
quote:
. I believe you are preaching medievalism, with all the witch burnings, plagues, ignorant medical practices, endless religious wars, etc.
No, that is what I would like to change, now presided over by the men of the New Inquisitional mandatory propoganda peddling, paganistic poppycock pushers.
quote:
That is nothing compared to the stupidity (destroying public education) and intolerance ("how they tolerate such opressive little Godless opinions") you are evidently supporting.
Tolerating things that supress the rights of the majority is not a good thhing. Flushing some things that offend the nose and senses is also sometimes needed. That is just how it is.
quote:
Additionally, as a veteran of the US Army, I have been and still am dedicated to provide for the economic prosperity and military effectiveness of this nation against all enemies foreign and domestic. Therefore I am against all efforts to diminish and/or destroy the economy and therefore the military viability of the United States through undermining public education.
Does your magnominity extend to Palestine schools, Iraq, and Iran? If the economy depends on minority Christless beliefs being stuffed down throats of children, then it needs a correction. When it comes, blame yourself.
Edited by whisper, : No reason given.
Edited by whisper, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 2:14 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 2:56 AM simple has replied
 Message 112 by NosyNed, posted 05-15-2006 2:58 AM simple has replied
 Message 118 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 12:30 PM simple has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 111 of 308 (311865)
05-15-2006 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by simple
05-15-2006 2:41 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
Where this imaginary contract conflicts with the majority beliefs, it should be flushed. As for democracy, a good start to getting the genuine article would be to respect the majority. This isn't Spinoza Panthiestism.
Part of the social contract is religious tolerance. It is true that I am an adherent of one of the smallest religions in the USA. Evidently you believe I should have no freedom of religion because I am not in the majority. It becomes first Panthiests, then Seventh-Day Adventists, then Jehovahs Witnesses, then Mormons, then Jews, then Catholics.
That is why there is a first amendment. That is why creationism should be banned from science classes, it is an exercise in religious intolerance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:41 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 3:33 AM anglagard has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 112 of 308 (311866)
05-15-2006 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by simple
05-15-2006 2:41 AM


Majority votes
The issue at hand is what is taught in schools, and the majority are Christians in the US. Yet they are gagged, and unable to stop other beliefs called science from being rammed down the throats of children. Did you really not know the context of this, or are you purposely diversionary?
I believe you will find that, dispite a great deal of misinformation, a majority of Christians (even in the US, and certainly world wide) still agree with the teaching of evolution. They understand it is not in conflict with Christian beliefs.
You make a lot of wild statements. Perhaps you should learn something about the sciences before you do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:41 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 3:27 AM NosyNed has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 308 (311870)
05-15-2006 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by NosyNed
05-15-2006 2:58 AM


Re: Majority votes
Seems like this thread has been mostly about beliefs. But thanks for the thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by NosyNed, posted 05-15-2006 2:58 AM NosyNed has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 308 (311871)
05-15-2006 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by anglagard
05-15-2006 2:56 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
Part of the social contract is religious tolerance. It is true that I am an adherent of one of the smallest religions in the USA. Evidently you believe I should have no freedom of religion because I am not in the majority.
I don't remember, first of all signing some so called social contract. Guess that means you can make it say whatever you like. The contract I sign is not to sell kids down the river. Maybe a few other contracts. None of which you have a thing to do with. As for your shrill false allegations that I would somehow disinherit minority beliefs, I beg to difer.
They have their wonderful little place. A safe place. That place is not stampeeding all over the rights and children of the majority. Tolerance must include the will of the majority. Not should include. MUST. Capice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 2:56 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by RickJB, posted 05-15-2006 3:42 AM simple has not replied
 Message 116 by CK, posted 05-15-2006 6:43 AM simple has not replied
 Message 117 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 8:50 AM simple has replied
 Message 120 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 2:11 PM simple has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 115 of 308 (311872)
05-15-2006 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by simple
05-15-2006 3:33 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
whisper writes:
Tolerance must include the will of the majority. Not should include. MUST. Capice?
Are we to assume you conveniently consider yourself part of said majority?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 3:33 AM simple has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 116 of 308 (311881)
05-15-2006 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by simple
05-15-2006 3:33 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
As for your shrill false allegations that I would somehow disinherit minority beliefs, I beg to difer.
They have their wonderful little place. A safe place. That place is not stampeeding all over the rights and children of the majority. Tolerance must include the will of the majority. Not should include. MUST. Capice?
Where are you from? You have stated that you are not in the USA? Here in The UK, the majority of us think that christians should mind their own business and keep their religion indoors and to themselves. You'd agree with that - it's what the majority want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 3:33 AM simple has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 117 of 308 (311910)
05-15-2006 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by simple
05-15-2006 3:33 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
In the United States, the social contract at the federal level is called the Constitution. One purpose of the Constitution is to protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority, aka mob. Clearly you disagree with the Constitution and feel there should be no individual rights, only "majority" rights.
There are 500 Indian tribes in the Western hemisphere. Each one has its own creation story. Under equal protection, if Biblical creationism is taught then each Indian creation story should also then be taught, along with Hinduism, Bhuddism, etc. in science class. I wonder when there would be the time to teach science in science class.
Of course, under the tyranny of the majority, minorities would have no rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 3:33 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:02 PM anglagard has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 118 of 308 (311980)
05-15-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by simple
05-15-2006 2:41 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
whisper writes:
The issue at hand is what is taught in schools, and the majority are Christians in the US. Yet they are gagged, and unable to stop other beliefs called science from being rammed down the throats of children.
Gagged are they? They seem plenty vocal to me.
And you are unjustifiably equating a methodological process (science) with a belief system like religion - which is the only way you can justify your attack on the process whihc you feel compelled to do because it produces results you don't like (evolutionary reasoning).
Nothing is rammed down anyone's throats in science class.
A methodology is taught and scientific inferences are discussed.
You guys are tho ones who want to ram things down people's throats by shoe-horning in your christian dogma where it doesn't belong.
Keep it in the churches and do your brainwashing of your own children there. We have no objections.
whisper writes:
Where this imaginary contract conflicts with the majority beliefs, it should be flushed.
Unfortunately, the 'majority' for the most part, consists of a bunch of sheep with little or no education.
What about when the majority is wrong?
That's why science is NOT a democratic process.
If it were, we'd still be in the stone age - but I guess we'd still have churches.
whisper writes:
...science is not at issue, but the beliefs associated with it
Science IS the issue. Creationism is NOT science and religion is NOT education. Can't you bring yourself to accept that?
The 'beliefs' you think are associated with science are a figment of your own imagination, simply because you construe the implications of certain theories as a contradiction to your own beliefs.
whisper writes:
Tolerating things that supress the rights of the majority is not a good thhing.
Tolerating the majority viewpoint is a lot more scary.
The majority usually isn't very smart, and if you are their acting spokesperson, you are only proving my point with your ridiculous arguments to substitute science with religion.
You essentially want the right to legislate stupidity if stupidity is what the majority wants (which is questionable, even for the Christian majority).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:41 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:12 PM EZscience has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 308 (312020)
05-15-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by anglagard
05-15-2006 8:50 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
There are 500 Indian tribes in the Western hemisphere. Each one has its own creation story. Under equal protection, if Biblical creationism is taught then each Indian creation story should also then be taught, along with Hinduism, Bhuddism, etc. in science class. I wonder when there would be the time to teach science in science class.
Where the majprity is natives, or muslims, or Hindus, the public mandatory education ought to reflect that. Real science is not involved in any belief. The aspects that require faith ought to reflect the people. Minority rights do not include telling the majority of a mostly Christian nation what to teach their kids. Their right is to attend if they wish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 8:50 AM anglagard has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 308 (312024)
05-15-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by simple
05-15-2006 3:33 AM


Fortunately, the US was designed to protect us from the Majority.
Tolerance must include the will of the majority. Not should include. MUST. Capice?
It is only the intolerant fundamentalists that so misunderstand both the Laws of the US and also what Tolerance means. In the US such complete intolerance is pretty much limited right now to Christian Fundamentalist, but over time has been exhibited by other bigotted exclusionary groups.
The funny thing is that they are also the ones whining the loudest about their rights being infringed while they trample on the rights of all others. If the Christian Right was not so dangerous they could be simply dismissed as a lunatic fringe. But they are not, they are also a large segment of the US population, and they are beginning to infect the rest of the world as well.
They are paranoid and delusional, and exclusionary even within there on small intolerant world. They claim to speak for Christianity, yet when it is pointed out to them that not only does much of Christianity not only accept that Evolution happened, that the TOE is the best explanation so far and that teaching Biblical Creationism is not just bad science, it is a perversion of Christianity and even worse theology, their response is almost invariably to pont to other examples of their own bigotry and intolerance. They claim that "those are not real christians" or "look at those groups and you'll find they also do not consider homosexuality and abomination".
Capice?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 3:33 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:16 PM jar has not replied

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