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Author | Topic: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
So, if you have any evidence for eternal torment that doesn't depend on your particular interpretation of the Revelation - why don't you show it to us and keep the rest of this childish ranting to yourself? Anyone who wants to go over my reasons again can re-read through my posts. And there is no reason why I should HAVE to provide evidence excluding the book of Revelation. Whether I can or not is beside the point. I don't have to meet that arbitrary criteria of yours.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Ringo writes: Do you have any evidence for eternal torment that doesn't depend on your particular interpretation of the Revelation? Hi Ringo. Go to my Message 214 and you have the evidence for what you requested. What do you do with that evidence, my friend? 1. Rev 20:10 = Devil and angels tormented in lake of fire.2. Matt (abe:25:41) = Folks on left cast into lake of fire prepared for devil and angels. 3. (abe: How about interpreting as per what is written as we do with other textbooks in life?) Edited by buzsaw, : No reason given. Edited by buzsaw, : Abe: 3. How about interpreting at face value as per what is written, like we do with other our other textbooks in life? Edited by buzsaw, : No reason given. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
buzsaw writes: What do you do with that evidence, my friend? Deja vu all over again:
quote: quote: Revelation mentions torment for the devil, the beast and the false prophet - not for the general public. Matthew mentions no torment at all for the goats. Even assuming that the two passages are talking about the same fire, I see little or no overlap between them. As I have said and said and said: The fire may be everlasting, but the fuel is consumed. The fire lasts as long as there is fuel, but the individual fuel units do not. There is nothing in your "evidence" to indicate otherwise. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes: ... there is no reason why I should HAVE to provide evidence excluding the book of Revelation. Your case would be more persuasive if you did (or if you could). If you're trying to persuade somebody (not necessarily me), why wouldn't you present your strongest case? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Revelation mentions torment for the devil, the beast and the false prophet - not for the general public. Matthew mentions no torment at all for the goats. Even assuming that the two passages are talking about the same fire, I see little or no overlap between them. That's odd. I do.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Your case would be more persuasive if you did (or if you could). If you're trying to persuade somebody (not necessarily me), why wouldn't you present your strongest case? Speaking of childish ... I think it is so, of a poster, who having been corrected, continues to pretend as if he has not. Perhaps such a tactic is good for newcomers to the board who may wonder why the other party won't answer their "dare yas." Such replies would only amount in restating and rewriting points which I have already gone over. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes: Such replies would only amount in restating and rewriting points which I have already gone over. Once again, instead of blustering, why not at least post a link to what you have "already stated" and "already written"? Newcomers to the board would find it easier to decide if your claims are true. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Once again, instead of blustering, why not at least post a link to what you have "already stated" and "already written"? Newcomers to the board would find it easier to decide if your claims are true. If any Newcomer wants to ask me a question about what I wrote, I'll respect that. Then I'll either answer again or go through the labor of finding the links. There's no need for me to do that with you Ringo. By the way you said that I was way off to charge you with denying the Diety of Jesus Christ. Does that mean you can say that your God is the man Jesus? Don't go hide behind the "Off Topic" flag now. Do you mean that God to you is the man Jesus? I think a yes or no should do it. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes: ... you said that I was way off to charge you with denying the Diety of Jesus Christ. There's another oppurtunity for you to post a link to where I have denied the deity of Jesus. But that's way off topic. The question here is: can you make a Biblical case for eternal torment that doesn't depend on your pet interpretation of the Revelation? So far, the answer seems to be that you can't. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Ringo and Jaywill,
Please keep to the topic and stop the personal evaluations. Also update your subtitles. Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread. Thank you
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I do understand your point, but you haven't actually addressed mine in Message 217. How have I made a contradiction of any sort? Message 217 Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Now the beginning of the sheep and goat story in Matthew starts:
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, ... All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another... Earlier in Chapter 20 of Revelation we have:
...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection....When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations... So when does the Son of Man come in his glory? The first resurrection or after the thousand years? IMO, these two verses do not describe the same event. If you feel that they do, please show me. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I have explained my view in Message 231 and the posts it references. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The verse itself does not state "others." I think it is actually your turn to explain how that verse does refer to more than what is stated.
quote:I can't give you a reason for something I haven't stated. Where have I said anything about a kinder damnation? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Ringo,
The question here is: can you make a Biblical case for eternal torment that doesn't depend on your pet interpretation of the Revelation? You're funny. To call quotations "pet interpretations." Not much interpretation is needed.
So far, the answer seems to be that you can't. Proving the matter of eternal punishment in eternal fire without refering to Revelation is your artificial and desperate criteria to reject the most obvious. As stated before, whether I can with or without Revelation show eternal punishment not an issue. If I refer ONLY to the clear statements of Revelation to establish this it is perfectly legitimate. And the fact of the matter is that I established the teaching with other verses like those in Matthew chapter 25. I do not have to submit to your moving the goal post around. And I don't agree that if I really cared to be more persuasive I would avoid quoting Revelation or interpreting the clear quotes in Revelation. IMO You blew it. You have no case. And you're beating a dead horse to appear that a shred of legitimacy in your Annhilationist theory still remains in this debate. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
purpledawn,
IMO, these two verses do not describe the same event. If you feel that they do, please show me. I agree with you. They don't speak of the same event. But they both describe an event of the lost being sent to the eternal punishment of eternal fire. I never said Rev. 20 and Matt. 25 describe the same event. The two passages not speaking of the same event will not establish a Universalist or Annhilationist denial of eternal damnation of torment. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Ringo writes: Revelation mentions torment for the devil, the beast and the false prophet - not for the general public. Matthew mentions no torment at all for the goats. Even assuming that the two passages are talking about the same fire, I see little or no overlap between them. As I have said and said and said: The fire may be everlasting, but the fuel is consumed. The fire lasts as long as there is fuel, but the individual fuel units do not. There is nothing in your "evidence" to indicate otherwise. 1. You're not making sense. Everlasting fire means just that with no mention of fuel consumed. 2. Add to these the account of the rich man being tormented and not consumed as well as other texts with similar implications. You become very hard pressed to justify your position. It appears that come hell or high water you're not going to be convinced so if this doesn't do it I give up, not on my position, but on convincing you of this obvious truth about what the Bible says. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
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