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Author Topic:   Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 308 (312025)
05-15-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by EZscience
05-15-2006 12:30 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
Gagged are they? They seem plenty vocal to me.
Not in the things taught in the public schools. They may squawk on the street corner or private television show, or wherever.
quote:
Unfortunately, the 'majority' for the most part, consists of a bunch of sheep with little or no education.
So? They have a right to faith, and a say in what is taught. Regardless of the minority opinion that may think in their little heads the majority is a bunch of dumb sheep.
quote:
The 'beliefs' you think are associated with science are a figment of your own imagination, simply because you construe the implications of certain theories as a contradiction to your own beliefs.
No science contradicts my beliefs.
quote:
Tolerating the majority viewpoint is a lot more scary.
The majority usually isn't very smart, ..
There is more important things in life than your opinion of what is supposedly smart. You can keep that.
quote:
You essentially want the right to legislate stupidity if stupidity is what the majority wants (which is questionable, even for the Christian majority).
I don't need a minority dictating what is stupid in their minority minds. They need to pipe down, and move over, and bow to the will of the majority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 12:30 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Chiroptera, posted 05-15-2006 2:14 PM simple has replied
 Message 124 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 2:38 PM simple has replied
 Message 130 by Coragyps, posted 05-15-2006 5:59 PM simple has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 308 (312026)
05-15-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by simple
05-15-2006 2:12 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
They need to pipe down, and move over, and bow to the will of the majority.
The tyranny of the majority? That doesn't sound very democratic to me.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:12 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:24 PM Chiroptera has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 308 (312028)
05-15-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Chiroptera
05-15-2006 2:14 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
If 'tyrany' is having the say what will be taught in public school, better a majority one than a minority tyrany, like at present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Chiroptera, posted 05-15-2006 2:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by NosyNed, posted 05-15-2006 2:53 PM simple has replied
 Message 126 by Chiroptera, posted 05-15-2006 3:32 PM simple has replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 124 of 308 (312032)
05-15-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by simple
05-15-2006 2:12 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
whisper writes:
They have a right to faith, and a say in what is taught.
Yes, a right to believe whatever they want, and a right to vote for school board members to represnet them. That's about where it ends. They don't have the right to decide what is or isn't science.
whisper writes:
They may squawk on the street corner or private television show, or wherever.
Precisely. They have freedom of speech. Not the right to determine what constitutes a science curriculum.
whisper writes:
No science contradicts my beliefs.
You'd have to be pretty well informed about science in order to make that statement, and that's not what we're seeing here.
whisper writes:
They need to pipe down, and move over, and bow to the will of the majority.
OK whisper, you are so all-fired 'majority says this' and 'majority wants that', consider for a moment what your attitude would be if your country wasn't a Chistian majority. There are plenty of countries where christians are a minority. If that were the case, wouldn't you want your government to protect your right to teach christian dogma to your christian community's children in their own church? Wouldn't that seem reasonable to you? You wouldn't want some to come in and say, 'you can only teach christian dogma if you also teach this other alternative dogma', would you?
Well think of it this way. The science classroom is like the church of secular intellect and reason. And even though secular intellect and reason is currently in the minority (horrifically so, in this country), it shouldn't be victimized and butchered by those who don't understand it just because they happen to be a majority. You have to put your self in the minority position before you start throwing your 'majority' weight around.
...and I truly doubt you speak for the majority of Christians with this kind of extremism anyway, but I guess I'll have to wait for one to show up and tell you so. Although you've probably embarassed most of them by now...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:12 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 4:20 PM EZscience has replied
 Message 136 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:25 PM EZscience has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 125 of 308 (312037)
05-15-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by simple
05-15-2006 2:24 PM


Majority
If 'tyrany' is having the say what will be taught in public school, better a majority one than a minority tyrany, like at present.
In which country is there a majority in favour of teaching YEC creationism? Do you really want the facts of it taught? As noted you don't know what the facts are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:24 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:22 PM NosyNed has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 308 (312051)
05-15-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by simple
05-15-2006 2:24 PM


What's the controversy?
Any society that has pretensions to democracy must protect the rights of the minority regardless of the wishes of the majority. That is part and parcel of the Western concept of "democracy" -- democracy does not mean (has never meant in modern thought) that the majority can make any decision whatsoever.
This set of rights includes the right of religion (and the right to not participate in any religion). In the US, in recognition of the tendency of certain sects to use the powers of the state to their own ends, this traditionally means that the state shall not interfere with any person's religous practice or lack of it, not shall it serve as a sponsor for the promotion of any particular religious doctrine nor for the promotion against any particular religious doctrine.
This is why that creationism cannot be taught in the US public schools. There is no evidence whatsoever in favor of any creation model remotely like the Genesis account. The scientific consensus is virtually unanimous on this; creationism has not been a viable model for over 200 years. The only reason any person would ever hold onto the creationism is because of their religious views, and it is not the role of the state to promote this kind of religious doctrine.
Likewise, the theory of evolution has an essential place in the biology curriculum of any school, and cannot be removed from the biology curriculum of a public school in the US. The vast amount of evidence provides as much proof as any scientific idea can be proven that life has evolved over a span of three and a half billion years. The evidence that has been amassed in the past 150 years is quite clear on this. There is no reason whatsoever for any person to reject the theory of evolution, except for their own religious beliefs. And it is not the role of the state to protect peoples' children from basic facts and the clear, obvious inferences that can be drawn from those facts.
Religious freedom means that anyone can engage in the religious rites that they choose and teach their children whatever they want. Religious freedom does not mean that the state is obligated to act as if inconvenient facts do not exist or that superstitious nonsense is the same level as physical evidence.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:24 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:19 PM Chiroptera has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 308 (312071)
05-15-2006 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by EZscience
05-15-2006 2:38 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
...and I truly doubt you speak for the majority of Christians with this kind of extremism anyway, but I guess I'll have to wait for one to show up and tell you so. Although you've probably embarassed most of them by now...
See Message 126.
Biblical Creationism is simply silly. It can only be accepted by those who are unwilling or unable to actually examine evidence. They must wilfully remain ignorant to stay Biblical Creationists. They do NOT represent Christianity any more than the few Christians that dance with poisonous snakes or drink poisons represent Christianity.
I happen to think it's a good idea to teach Creation in public schools. We need to teach all of the creation myths so that students can see the similarities among all mythos, the common thread among early man to try to explain the world around them. It is a good basic platform for them to stand upon as they then go on to discover how GOD actually did it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 2:38 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 4:41 PM jar has not replied
 Message 133 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:18 PM jar has replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 128 of 308 (312083)
05-15-2006 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
05-15-2006 4:20 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
Actually, I'm starting to think that's a good idea.
A single course that covers the Evolution of Mythologies throughout the history of civilization. To help students recongize a mythology when they see one and distinguish it from any evidence-based pursuit of knowledge. (Of couse, we'd have to call it comething else )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 4:20 PM jar has not replied

Whirlwind
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 308 (312109)
05-15-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Finding Nirvana
02-09-2006 5:51 PM


A question of science
I get really annoyed when people say "I don't believe in evolution". It is not a question of belief, it is about science. Saying "I don't believe in evolution" is like saying "I don't believe in gravity" or "I don't believe the Earth is round".
Religion is very simplistic, with parts that are not supposed to understood (for example the Holy Trinity). Evolution should be taught in schools as a very good scientific theory and creationism should be taught as a perversion of scientific evidence to fit an already established agenda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Finding Nirvana, posted 02-09-2006 5:51 PM Finding Nirvana has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 130 of 308 (312118)
05-15-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by simple
05-15-2006 2:12 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
No science contradicts my beliefs.
Have I not been paying attention? Do you believe that our planet is about 4.55 billion years old, that life arose here about 3.5 billion years ago, and that modern humans arose from not-quite-modern humans maybe 150,000 years ago?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 2:12 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:17 PM Coragyps has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 308 (312250)
05-15-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
05-15-2006 2:11 PM


Re: Fortunately, the US was designed to protect us from the Majority.
quote:
If the Christian Right was not so dangerous they could be simply dismissed as a lunatic fringe. But they are not, they are also a large segment of the US population, and they are beginning to infect the rest of the world as well.
Great! As long as the infection is the gospel, healinng, salvation, and truth of the bible, and not some Bush like mass killing.
We are in a war of the worlds, and only one side will win.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 2:11 PM jar has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 308 (312252)
05-15-2006 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Coragyps
05-15-2006 5:59 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
Of course not, that has nothing to do with science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Coragyps, posted 05-15-2006 5:59 PM Coragyps has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 308 (312254)
05-15-2006 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
05-15-2006 4:20 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
No, your opinion is silly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 4:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 11:48 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 308 (312255)
05-15-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Chiroptera
05-15-2006 3:32 PM


Re: What's the controversy?
The rights of the minority do not include dictating to a Christian majority what to teach or believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Chiroptera, posted 05-15-2006 3:32 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Chiroptera, posted 05-15-2006 11:35 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 308 (312257)
05-15-2006 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NosyNed
05-15-2006 2:53 PM


: Majority
I don't know. I read that most in the US believed in the flood in one poll a few years ago. Certainly most believe in prayer. Maybe even the bible. So, let's get on with it there, and have prayer in school, and bible, which includes creation.
Don't give us the line that most also believe in evolution. I believe in evolution too, starting at the garden of Eden.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NosyNed, posted 05-15-2006 2:53 PM NosyNed has not replied

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