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Author Topic:   abstinece-only sex education
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 46 of 306 (312215)
05-15-2006 9:52 PM


Abstinence Education Refused
The situation here is that one has to sign a form when one wants their child to not participate. It used to be one had to sign a form to participate. So I just sign the form for my daughter to not participate.
For her, it would be a waste of time anyway. I sat her down at 5 years of age with the 3rd ed. of Campbell's Biology and told her the truth. Not unlike other subjects, where I have to supplement her classes in public school with additional teaching.
System appears to work, as a teenager, so far no premarital sex and no STDs, 22 in ACT in 7th grade, missed just 3 questions on TAKS test last week. Parental involvement in education works just fine here.

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 10:02 PM anglagard has not replied
 Message 52 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 10:21 PM anglagard has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 306 (312216)
05-15-2006 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
05-15-2006 9:48 PM


Thank you Faith
Faith writes:
If you KNOW that is my position you can't answer it with statistics about how sexual activity increases when abstinence is taught, because that is totally irrelevant to my position, but that's all anybody here has had to say.
I could not have put it better myself. What a GREAT example of wilfull ignorance. You say it is irrelevant if your porgams are totally ineffective and a complete failure. They are YOUR programs and so they are RIGHT, even if totally ineffective.
What Hubris.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 9:48 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 306 (312218)
05-15-2006 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by anglagard
05-15-2006 9:52 PM


Re: Abstinence Education Refused
Parental involvement and teaching what the public schools leave out is always the way to go. Congratulations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 9:52 PM anglagard has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 49 of 306 (312219)
05-15-2006 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
05-15-2006 2:03 PM


Faith writes:
It may be true that the attempt to keep sin to a minimum in a culture only provokes worse sins. The Law is said in scripture to provoke violations of it. Just the way things are.
But I also think that can't be the concern of leaders and teachers of youth. Their job has to be to stand for what's right and teach the kids what's wrong.
and also
Faith writes:
This is the real reason for the health problems already created by the sexual freedom of the last few decades -- it's judgment, the kind of judgment that is built into the sin in this case
This kind of view actually scares me. You are basically saying that, despite the fact that it may heart human beings, the government should stay the course and keep the abstinance only programs because of some outdated view of what's right or wrong.
based on what? some lalaland-rules extracted from a lalaland-book? just to validate your own provincian views of morality? how can anybody be so self-centred, is my question to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 2:03 PM Faith has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 50 of 306 (312220)
05-15-2006 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
05-15-2006 7:40 PM


Re: Since the 60s?s
jar writes:
"N... , don't let the sun set on you here! signed the Sheriff".
Funny. I was actually told that just nearby my house there used to be one that read, "If your ass is black it better be out of town before sunset."
Convergent Americana ?
Edited by EZscience, : screwed up formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 7:40 PM jar has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 51 of 306 (312224)
05-15-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
05-15-2006 9:48 PM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
Faith writes:
Except for ignorant head in the sand denial of the increase in STDs.
Care to provide some statistical evidence for said increase, along with specifics of their exact nature?
There are new STD's emerging all the time, but I think incidence of the older ones is down a lot and they are more treatable and ameliorated in impact than ever before.
Thanks to science I might add, not any ridiculous abstinence pipe dream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 9:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 10:37 PM EZscience has replied
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 10:52 PM EZscience has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 52 of 306 (312225)
05-15-2006 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by anglagard
05-15-2006 9:52 PM


Re: Abstinence Education Refused
Sounds like you are doing a great job with your daughter.
I take much the same approach with mine. But you say:
anglagard writes:
System appears to work,
...right after you just said:
anglagard writes:
Not unlike other subjects, where I have to supplement her classes in public school with additional teaching.
So how can you say the system is working?
The American public education system is so obviously abysmally bad as you recognize, but you shouldn't be so willing to accept that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 9:52 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by anglagard, posted 05-15-2006 10:28 PM EZscience has not replied
 Message 54 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 10:28 PM EZscience has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 53 of 306 (312226)
05-15-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by EZscience
05-15-2006 10:21 PM


Re: Abstinence Education Refused
So how can you say the system is working?
Sorry, meant my system appears to work, not educational system in general.
I must remember to be more precise and less flippant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 10:21 PM EZscience has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 306 (312227)
05-15-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by EZscience
05-15-2006 10:21 PM


Re: Abstinence Education Refused
Moving slightly (way) off topic.
Public Education was never meant to supplant learning in the home. It's a way to share expensive resources. But if you look at students that succeed, you will find that Parental enviolvement is the single biggest factor.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 10:21 PM EZscience has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 306 (312228)
05-15-2006 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by EZscience
05-15-2006 10:12 PM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
Care to provide some statistical evidence for said increase, along with specifics of their exact nature?
There are new STD's emerging all the time, but I think incidence of the older ones is down a lot and they are more treatable and ameliorated in impact than ever before.
It's really common knowledge except to those who don't want it to be. Go read the link at Message 36. It's a medical site. If you want more specifics look them up yourself.
Take note of my Message 32 also where the older generation of STDs known as venereal diseases is mentioned.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 10:12 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Coragyps, posted 05-15-2006 10:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 65 by EZscience, posted 05-16-2006 7:09 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 306 (312231)
05-15-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by EZscience
05-15-2006 10:12 PM


in more detail
There are new STD's emerging all the time,
Yes as a result of sexual promiscuity, which is a violation of God's moral law, which is being punished by diseases.
but I think incidence of the older ones is down a lot and they are more treatable and ameliorated in impact than ever before.
Thanks to science I might add, not any ridiculous abstinence pipe dream.
Yes, God blesses us by permitting science to keep things controllable up to a point, but this can't last forever, sin spreading disease and science trying to catch up. And cures? Not even syphilis and gonorrhea are wiped out, plus we now have STDs in the general population that weren't there before that are not treatable yet -- the herpes and HPV viruses. Gynecologists now routinely test for HPV because of its reputed connection with cervical cancer.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 10:12 PM EZscience has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by NosyNed, posted 05-15-2006 11:00 PM Faith has replied
 Message 183 by Heathen, posted 05-19-2006 10:47 AM Faith has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 57 of 306 (312233)
05-15-2006 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
05-15-2006 10:37 PM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
where the older generation of STDs known as venereal diseases is mentioned.
And shown by governmental, official statistics to be in dramatic decline since the 1940's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 10:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 10:56 PM Coragyps has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 306 (312234)
05-15-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Coragyps
05-15-2006 10:54 PM


Re: More evidence of the Failure of Abstinence programs.
What is your point? The fact that we have a couple of ancient diseases suppressed means what? We have half a dozen brand new ones, some incurable ones so far, at least one just about guaranteed lethal. Your point is?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Coragyps, posted 05-15-2006 10:54 PM Coragyps has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 59 of 306 (312236)
05-15-2006 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
05-15-2006 10:52 PM


STD's are not good.
Ok, does anyone disagree with that?
STD's can be spread (by definition) by careless sex. No one is disagreeing.
What you are ignoring is the topic. Abstinence only sex education is NOT a good way to deal with STD's (or any other bad side effect of sex).
If sexual promiscuity is bad and saying it is a violation of God's moral law (even to believing Christians) doesn't stop it from happening what is the best way to stop bad things like STD's and prenancy?
If you are saying that diseases are punishment from God then I'm sure you would never (for fear of your mortal soul) take any anti-biotics, right?
You aren't actually, as a Christian, saying you want people to suffer for their transgressions are you? Are you?
( please say you are. Us atheists just love it when Christians show their true nature and how abborant they can really be. )
Edited by NosyNed, : Dumb spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 10:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 05-15-2006 11:46 PM NosyNed has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 306 (312266)
05-15-2006 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by NosyNed
05-15-2006 11:00 PM


Re: STD's are not good.
What you are ignoring is the topic. Abstinence only sex education is NOT a good way to deal with STD's (or any other bad side effect of sex).
It is in fact the ONLY way, but of course it isn't going to work in the current atmosphere that trivializes the moral questions involved and treats it as a practical issue or a health issue. If people would enforce it as a moral rather than practical solution, meaning if the whole thing could be seen in moral terms as it mostly used to be seen, and argued from a moral position rather than this relativistic they'll-do-it-anyway-and-who-cares point of view there would be more motivation to self control. But as long as the culture in general treats sex as this casual thing that carries no real consequences no program at all is going to work for long anyway.
If sexual promiscuity is bad and saying it is a violation of God's moral law (even to believing Christians) doesn't stop it from happening what is the best way to stop bad things like STD's and prenancy?
Get more serious about it instead of caving in to the permissive culture. What can I say? The whole atmosphere is so wishywashy about it of course nobody takes it seriously. But why should condoms and education work any better? Kids aren't easily scared of diseases -- they tend to think they're going to live forever.
If you are saying that diseases are punishment from God then I'm sure you would never (for fear of your mortal soul) take any anti-biotics, right?
Oh brother. No, the diseases go with the territory of sin, they are just built into it. But cures for diseases are also provided by God who has mercy on our struggles in our fallen stupidities and hopes we will yet repent and turn to Him. Still, we may well be approaching the point where the balance is turning and the sin and disease factor outstrips the mercy factor in our national life.
You aren't actually, as a Christian, saying you want people to suffer for their transgressions are you? Are you?
( please say you are. Us atheists just love it when Christians show their true nature and how abborant they can really be. )
Yes you do enjoy your smug self-congratulatory little game don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by NosyNed, posted 05-15-2006 11:00 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2006 1:27 AM Faith has replied
 Message 63 by Funkaloyd, posted 05-16-2006 4:42 AM Faith has not replied

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