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Author Topic:   Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?
simple 
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 308 (312258)
05-15-2006 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by EZscience
05-15-2006 2:38 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
Yes, a right to believe whatever they want, and a right to vote for school board members to represnet them. That's about where it ends. They don't have the right to decide what is or isn't science.
Of course they do! The hogwash unbelievers have piggybacked on science is absurd. A bunch of beliefs. Actual science is not in any question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 2:38 PM EZscience has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 308 (312262)
05-15-2006 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by simple
05-15-2006 11:19 PM


Re: What's the controversy?
Christians can teach and believe whatever they wish. They just cannot use state funds or state facilities to do so.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:19 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:08 AM Chiroptera has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 308 (312267)
05-15-2006 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by simple
05-15-2006 11:18 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
whisper writes:
No, your opinion is silly.
A profound post if there ever was one.
The FACTS are that Biblical Creationism does NOT represent the viewpoint of Christianity. In fact, every major US Christian Church has come out against teaching Biblical Creatioism and in support of teaching the FACT of Evolution and that the TOE is the best explanation of what happened so far.
One piece of evidence in support of that position is the Clergy Project, where over 10,000 US Christian Clergy have signed an open letter saying:
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
For you to come here and make assertions we usually expect some form of support. Now I have provided support for the assertion that the Christian position is that Evolution is Fact and that the TOE is the best explanation and the one that should be taught.
This is not a Christian vs Evolution issue. The issue is whether or not a subject that has NO supporting evidence, Biblical Creationism, should be taught.
I personally think that it should be. It, along with all of the other creation myths, to include the two different and mutually exclusive creation myths found in the Bible, should be taught. That way the kids can learn very early on to recognize mythos when they come across it. Myths are important. They give us a glimpse into the thinking of early man and the Biblical Creation Myths are very good examples.
In the Bible we find two different Creation Myths, with two entirely different depictions of God. In the older myth, the one found in Genesis 2 & 3, we find a God very much like the other primitive Gods of the period. The God of Genesis 2 & 3 is very human, slightly more powerful but still a child modeling things in clay by the riverbank.
In the later story, the one found in Genesis 1 we find a completely different God. That God is far removed from mere humanity, and creates by and act of will alone. Gone is all the stuff about a Garden of Eden, or serpent, or magical trees. Gone is the fall and in this version of creation, all is very good.
Teach both myths. Show the kids how the story changed over time. Compare it to the other creation myths from the era, the area and all time, all places, all peoples. Teach the kids to recognize mythos. Then, they will be prepared to go on and learn what really happened, how GOD really did it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:18 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:19 AM jar has replied
 Message 141 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:19 AM jar has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 308 (312276)
05-16-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Chiroptera
05-15-2006 11:35 PM


Re: What's the controversy?
I think we all know that, so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Chiroptera, posted 05-15-2006 11:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Chiroptera, posted 05-16-2006 10:16 AM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 308 (312281)
05-16-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
05-15-2006 11:48 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
The FACTS are that Biblical Creationism does NOT represent the viewpoint of Christianity
Not all Christians, no. But in the US, we see that bible belief is the majority, including Noah etc.
"An ABC News poll released Sunday found that 61 percent of Americans believe the account of creation in the Bible's book of Genesis is "literally true" rather than a story meant as a "lesson."
Sixty percent believe in the story of Noah's ark and a global flood, while 64 percent agree that Moses parted the Red Sea to save fleeing Jews from their Egyptian captors.
"
Most Americans take Bible stories literally - Washington Times
Now your list of Christians who DON"T believe the bible that way, (or hardly any way) is meaningless. I could say not all Jesus' deciples believed in Him, and then show a paper signed by Judas.
quote:
For you to come here and make assertions we usually expect some form of support
I just gave some, the poll.
quote:
The issue is whether or not a subject that has NO supporting evidence, Biblical Creationism, should be taught.
Says you. It is also the majority right to prayer in school, and the bible, etc. People who believe it have as much support as those who believe non biblical fabrication.
quote:
In the later story, the one found in Genesis 1 we find a completely different God.
Not true. The creation account is in chap 1, read how 2 starts, it mentions all was already done, and just goes over a few things in more detail.
quote:
Teach the kids to recognize mythos.
They need to look to fables like the big bang, and evolution beyond creation for that. The bible is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 11:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 05-16-2006 12:30 AM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 308 (312282)
05-16-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
05-15-2006 11:48 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
The FACTS are that Biblical Creationism does NOT represent the viewpoint of Christianity
Not all Christians, no. But in the US, we see that bible belief is the majority, including Noah etc.
"An ABC News poll released Sunday found that 61 percent of Americans believe the account of creation in the Bible's book of Genesis is "literally true" rather than a story meant as a "lesson."
Sixty percent believe in the story of Noah's ark and a global flood, while 64 percent agree that Moses parted the Red Sea to save fleeing Jews from their Egyptian captors.
"
Most Americans take Bible stories literally - Washington Times
Now your list of Christians who DON"T believe the bible that way, (or hardly any way) is meaningless. I could say not all Jesus' deciples believed in Him, and then show a paper signed by Judas.
quote:
For you to come here and make assertions we usually expect some form of support
I just gave some, the poll.
quote:
The issue is whether or not a subject that has NO supporting evidence, Biblical Creationism, should be taught.
Says you. It is also the majority right to prayer in school, and the bible, etc. People who believe it have as much support as those who believe non biblical fabrication.
quote:
In the later story, the one found in Genesis 1 we find a completely different God.
Not true. The creation account is in chap 1, read how 2 starts, it mentions all was already done, and just goes over a few things in more detail.
quote:
Teach the kids to recognize mythos.
They need to look to fables like the big bang, and evolution beyond creation for that. The bible is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 05-15-2006 11:48 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 308 (312286)
05-16-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by simple
05-16-2006 12:19 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
The issue is not just what people believe. Frankly that is pretty much nonsense. What I produced is a document signed by 10,000 Christian Cleregy in the US. That is a selection, a very large sample, of the very people who should know the issue best. It is not a man on the street opinion poll, I fully realize how absolutely useless they are, but rather a sample from the very people best suited to judge whether or not the idea of Biblical Creationism can be supported. US Christian Clergy.
And it can't.
It doesn't matter how many people believe in the GOE fable. There is no evidence it ever existed. It doesn't matter how many people believe that there was a world-wide flood. The evidence is overwhelming that it never happened.
So teach the myths, all the myths, and let the kids learn to identify mythos when they run across it. Then they will be prepared to move on to learn what really happened, how GOD really did it.
And about your reading of Genesis. Right, sure. Sorry Charlie, it's two stories, from two eras and two peoples. The two tales are mutually exclusive. We have lots of threads on the Genesis Myths. Feel free to take the discussion of them there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:19 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2006 1:12 AM jar has not replied
 Message 145 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 12:13 AM jar has replied
 Message 151 by anglagard, posted 05-17-2006 2:45 AM jar has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 143 of 308 (312292)
05-16-2006 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
05-16-2006 12:30 AM


Majority side issue
One part of this is what the majority believes. Let's face it if the majority really does think it should be taught and they think it is important enough it WILL be taught (and the downward spiral will continue).
The poll whisper references is news to me. I've not seen one with a marjority (even in the US) believing in YEC creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 05-16-2006 12:30 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 12:17 AM NosyNed has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 308 (312389)
05-16-2006 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by simple
05-16-2006 12:08 AM


Re: What's the controversy?
If you already knew that, then the previous post you wrote makes no sense.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken (quoted on Panda's Thumb)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:08 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 12:16 AM Chiroptera has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 308 (312644)
05-17-2006 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
05-16-2006 12:30 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
whether or not the idea of Biblical Creationism can be supported. US Christian Clergy.
And it can't.
Add up all the denominations, and the majority will believe in the flood, etc, I would think. What clouds the issue is the nominal christians who think the bible basically is a bunch of fables and poems. This is no doubt the source for your signees of unbelief. You could find some to sign on to homsexuality as well, plenty no doubt. So what?
quote:
It doesn't matter how many people believe in the GOE
If they are the majority, it matters. It matters a lot. As for the silly proof boogy man, you have none against, so save it.
quote:
So teach the myths, all the myths, and let the kids learn to identify mythos when they run across it. Then they will be prepared to move on to learn what really happened, how GOD really did it.
Says who? I say let them pray, and learn about the majority beliefs of their country. If any solid science absolutlely disproves something, that is another matter. But science does not touch the virgin birth, heaven, or the ressurection, or a host of other things.
quote:
And about your reading of Genesis. Right, sure. Sorry Charlie, it's two stories, from two eras and two peoples
Not if we read it as chap 1 being the account of creation, and 2 being a flashback. All you do is echo outsider's misconceptions with pretended authority. Forget it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 05-16-2006 12:30 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 05-17-2006 12:23 AM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 308 (312645)
05-17-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Chiroptera
05-16-2006 10:16 AM


Re: What's the controversy?
To you. It resonates well for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Chiroptera, posted 05-16-2006 10:16 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Chiroptera, posted 05-17-2006 3:26 PM simple has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 308 (312646)
05-17-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by NosyNed
05-16-2006 1:12 AM


Re: Majority side issue
quote:
The poll whisper references is news to me
Glad to be the bearer of glad tidings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2006 1:12 AM NosyNed has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 148 of 308 (312647)
05-17-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by simple
05-17-2006 12:13 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
Says who? I say let them pray, and learn about the majority beliefs of their country. If any solid science absolutlely disproves something, that is another matter. But science does not touch the virgin birth, heaven, or the ressurection, or a host of other things.
Correct. It doesn't touch those things. It does though touch young earth, that's as phony as a three dollar bill. And it does touch on the flood, that just never happened. And it does touch on the conquest of Canaan, never happened as told in the book.
Evolution and the TOE are not anti-Christian. They do not show that there is no GOD, or that GOD does not care about us. All they show is How God Did It.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 12:13 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 1:21 AM jar has replied
 Message 150 by DrJones*, posted 05-17-2006 2:00 AM jar has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 308 (312653)
05-17-2006 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by jar
05-17-2006 12:23 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
quote:
Correct. It doesn't touch those things. It does though touch young earth,
This is where the evolution creation debate comes in. If you have something on that sometime, do tell. Meanwhile, what is this Caanan thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 05-17-2006 12:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 05-17-2006 9:57 AM simple has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 150 of 308 (312655)
05-17-2006 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by jar
05-17-2006 12:23 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
I suspect that this is just Simple yet again. For a person who claims to be a christian he's being awfully dishonest be continually re-registering as someone new after being suspended.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 05-17-2006 12:23 AM jar has not replied

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