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Author Topic:   Why Atheists don't believe
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 151 of 310 (312670)
05-17-2006 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by riVeRraT
05-15-2006 11:41 PM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
RRat writes:
Somewhere along the way, somebody had to make this stuff up.
But thats just it.
I don't believe in your sky god (or any god) because I can see it is self evident that SOMEONE made it up.
Ed: Incorrect quote tag.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 05-15-2006 11:41 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:48 AM Larni has replied
 Message 184 by riVeRraT, posted 05-17-2006 7:59 AM Larni has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 152 of 310 (312671)
05-17-2006 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
05-16-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Q and the like
No I can say the same thing about god (at least a non-deist god). I am 100% sure that the judeo-christian god does not exist. The Universe directly contradicts the existence of an omnipotent/omnibenevolent god.
I'm not sure what omnibenevolent means. No matter. Does your modelling take into account a perfectly Just and Wrathful God who is as 'constrained' to satisfying his justness and wrathfulness as he is 'constrained' to satisfying his love. Or are you guilty of dismantling a strawgod.
Edited by iano, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 05-16-2006 10:20 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 05-17-2006 8:58 AM iano has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 153 of 310 (312672)
05-17-2006 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
05-17-2006 4:42 AM


The sense I get from you when you use the word KNOW is one of absolute surity.
To KNOW is to banish any chance of error.
I contend that the universe we live in does not have 100% chance of anything.
QM shows us that probability can not reach 100% (If I'm wrong here could some one correct me as my arguement hangs on this fact).
I contend that you cannot KNOW (by your defination) anything. When you use the word KNOW I get the sense that you are stating that you cannot be wrong in this.
I contend that you can be wrong and that your confidence in what you lable KNOWing is misplaced.
In answer to your question:
They are deluded
Please note, I do not claim you are wrong (you could be right, in fact I hope you are) but that your confidence is terribly terribly misplaced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 4:42 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:45 AM Larni has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 310 (312676)
05-17-2006 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by RickJB
05-17-2006 3:56 AM


iano writes:
If Christianity was the one and only way would it sound exclusive and intolerant of all others? Does that in itself make it wrong? Hardly.
Truth is always intolerant of error. That doesn't make Christianity true but it tells you something of what you could expect if it was true.
Truth doesn't have to prove itself in order to be true. The world was round long before anyone proved it. Neither am I attempting to prove Christianity is true. I'm making a narrow point here. If true then exclusive it can be expected to be. Do you concur with that single issue?
So, to return to the point it would (in my opinion only, of course) seem deeply unjust of God to discern between any type of religious faith as they all seek and work with their own set of "truths" - their own paths to God, so to speak.
They all do - except that Christianity (if true) would be the one which works with Gods truths and not mans own. The worlds religions aren't designed to lead to God they are designed to lead to a god made in mans own image an likeness. A god designed to suit mans needs. A god that can be controlled and adapted. God takes a dim view on people worshipping such false gods. Its not harmless error - its blatant denial of him and his claim on us.
If it weren't so tragic it would be funny.
Your faith is no more true than any of the others.
How do you know that?
The baseless, arrogant assumption that one group has special access to God over all others is one of the traits of fundamentalist religion I most dislike.
If God said there was one way only by which access to him was to be obtained then that would be the case (if you feel that this is unjust then say why you think that - specifically). If so, then what is arrogant and baseless and assumed in the stance of a group of people who are shown this path by him and who take it and tell others how to take it? That path is open to everyone after all.
I'm pretty sure you really think Christianity is true! In any case what you are implying here is that belief of the "wrong" kind incurs Godly punishment for making the "wrong" choice. Yet by some sick conincidence God seems to have created any number of religions with which to confuse people. You might well argue that this represents "temptation". Sounds like a sick joke to me.
Where did you get the notion that God created all the religions? You don't think man is capable of making up gods (if not God)? Its not belief in another god per se which results in mans damnation. The god he worhsips is only an outworking of a deeper, universal problem. Sin
point of note: I know Christianity is true. You cannot be sure of that granted - I could be lying or be deluded (in which case I might be saying I know something which I don't actually know). But I can be sure I know

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by RickJB, posted 05-17-2006 3:56 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by CK, posted 05-17-2006 5:38 AM iano has replied
 Message 166 by RickJB, posted 05-17-2006 6:25 AM iano has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 155 of 310 (312678)
05-17-2006 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by iano
05-17-2006 5:30 AM


quote:
God takes a dim view on people worshipping such false gods. Its not harmless error - its blatant denial of him and his claim on us.
quote:
Chrisitianity is the only faith system in which your eternal position is decided not by what you do but what God does FOR you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:30 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:47 AM CK has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 310 (312679)
05-17-2006 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Larni
05-17-2006 4:56 AM


The sense I get from you when you use the word KNOW is one of absolute surity
Good. For that is precisely what I am trying to convey. For if one suspected for a moment that I was telling the truth then they might conclude that they could know for sure too (on the assumption that 'knowing' is a quality that shares similar characteristics amongst all people)
To KNOW is to banish any chance of error.
Correct
I contend that the universe we live in does not have 100% chance of anything.
I agree. We might not exist. We can know we do but that doesn't mean we actually do.
QM shows us that probability can not reach 100% (If I'm wrong here could some one correct me as my arguement hangs on this fact)
Presumably QM being true hasn't reached this 100% probability level either
I contend that you cannot KNOW (by your defination) anything. When you use the word KNOW I get the sense that you are stating that you cannot be wrong in this.
My definition allows for it not actually being the case. But only on the level: If God doesn't exist then neither do I.
I know lots of things. I know my motorcycle is parked outside (at least I hope so - the bike thieves were around checking it out yesterday - I know that too for I used to be one). I know there is a computer sitting on front of me and that there is a person who goes by the name of Larni at the other end of it
Whats the big problem with knowing anything?
Please note, I do not claim you are wrong (you could be right, in fact I hope you are) but that your confidence is terribly terribly misplaced.
My confidence is not my own. He showed up and that is why I am confident. I am right. I am telling the truth. He told me to tell others so I do.
Bring on the lions!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 4:56 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 6:00 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 157 of 310 (312680)
05-17-2006 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by CK
05-17-2006 5:38 AM


Your not the most wordy of posters at the best of times CK but this must set a new record.
Was there a question in there somewhere?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by CK, posted 05-17-2006 5:38 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by CK, posted 05-17-2006 6:03 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 158 of 310 (312681)
05-17-2006 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Larni
05-17-2006 4:45 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
That weren't me you wus quoting there Larni
{AbE}
Larni writes:
I don't believe in your sky god (or any god) because I can see it is self evident that SOMEONE made it up.
I sure would like to meet the person who made up a principle of living that nigh on all people would, in their hearts, concur with, to whit:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
hang on - I already did!
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 4:45 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by CK, posted 05-17-2006 6:08 AM iano has not replied
 Message 162 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 6:08 AM iano has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 159 of 310 (312683)
05-17-2006 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by iano
05-17-2006 5:45 AM


Iano writes:
If God doesn't exist then neither do I
False dichotomy.
This is not that case.
You propose a universe in which your existance is contingent on the xian god.
This is an assertion. This is your belief. This is your conclusion based on your interpretation of the available evidence.
Unless you claim you are a perfect conclusion generating entity with access to perfect evidence you cannot KNOW (as we define the word here) that your belief in the xian god is grounded in reality.
In fact. To KNOW your god you would have to be it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 6:24 AM Larni has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 160 of 310 (312684)
05-17-2006 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
05-17-2006 5:47 AM


Did it require a question? I thought it was pretty obvious from the two quotes?
Your position seems to shift depending on the answer that you best think defeats the position put to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:47 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 6:35 AM CK has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 161 of 310 (312685)
05-17-2006 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by iano
05-17-2006 5:48 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
quote:
hang on - I already did!
You met Confucius? (who lived 500 years before Jesus) - the jews and the egyptians beat you christians to that one as well.
Edited by CK, : Clarification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:48 AM iano has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 162 of 310 (312686)
05-17-2006 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by iano
05-17-2006 5:48 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
Fixed the Quote Tag, sorry 'bout that
Iano writes:
I sure would like to meet the person who made up a principle of living that nigh on all people would, in their hearts, concur with, to whit:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
hang on - I already did!
I see no problem here. Those words were spoken by a mortal and erroneously attributed to the divine.
It is a good way for people to behave and I see no reason to attribute it to any god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 5:48 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by CK, posted 05-17-2006 6:11 AM Larni has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 163 of 310 (312687)
05-17-2006 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Larni
05-17-2006 6:08 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
And it's a matter of historical record that he was not the first mortal to utter such words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 6:08 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 6:23 AM CK has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 164 of 310 (312688)
05-17-2006 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by CK
05-17-2006 6:11 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
Really? Who said it first?
More reasons not to believe.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by CK, posted 05-17-2006 6:11 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 6:44 AM Larni has replied
 Message 170 by CK, posted 05-17-2006 6:47 AM Larni has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 165 of 310 (312689)
05-17-2006 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Larni
05-17-2006 6:00 AM


You propose a universe in which your existance is contingent on the xian god.
I knew that both I and the universe existed before I knew God existed. My knowing I existed wasn't contingent on God. It was contingant on my knowing it. Same as anyone else I suppose
Then I knew he existed
If I can know he exists when he actually doesn't, then I can know I exist when I actually don't. In which case I cease to exist - for existance depends on our knowing it to be the case - to be the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 6:00 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 6:45 AM iano has replied

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