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Author Topic:   Why Atheists don't believe
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 181 of 310 (312716)
05-17-2006 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by RickJB
05-17-2006 6:25 AM


I merely make the point that though you feel that you KNOW the truth of your belief there is no empirical way to show it's validity over other faiths.
Fair enough. Although I never suggested my knowledge demonstrated anything empirically
This is YOUR opinion, your belief, your "knowledge". People of other faiths have theirs. What if Islam is the correct path and you are wrong?
Then what I knew to be the case isn't. I never said that what I knew to be the case proved something was actually the case. I was suggesting that knowing something was the very best proof we have for ourselves that something is actually the case. Not iron clad - but the very best.
As far as I'm concerned they are ALL man made!
Which is a belief - not knowledge. And beliefs can be wrong
Edited by iano, : clarify

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 182 of 310 (312717)
05-17-2006 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
05-16-2006 11:11 PM


You asked why atheists don't believe. IMHO the answer is that they look at the visible Christians and say "I simply don't want to be even vaguely associated with the Christians I see."
Yes, I agree, but the video is trying to separate from that. In a few of them, they even tell the person that you do not need to go to church. Just to encourage them to pick up a bible, and think about it.
Everyone in that thread, and now you in this one, keeps saying the video, the video, it sucks, it's for stupid people. But aside from the banana thing, I have read no attacks on the actual content, and why it is wrong.
There is nothing wrong with letting people know, by their own admissions (and mine for myself) we are sinners, and that Jesus forgives us. Tell me, what is wrong with that?

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 183 of 310 (312718)
05-17-2006 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by RickJB
05-17-2006 4:20 AM


So what? That's their belief. They have no empirical evidence.
IF you love your mother, or anything, do you need emprical evidence to prove it? Or do you just know that you love something?
There's no doubting the power of myth and mystery to inspire, but there's also no doubting the power of dogma to oppress.
So true.

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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 184 of 310 (312721)
05-17-2006 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Larni
05-17-2006 4:45 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
I don't believe in your sky god (or any god) because I can see it is self evident that SOMEONE made it up.
Right, but to get to know God, you do not need to go to a church, or give money, or any other requirement other than to just believe in Him, and follow His ways.
Studying it, is not enough.
Spending some time praying, and asking God things is much better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 4:45 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 185 of 310 (312722)
05-17-2006 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by iano
05-17-2006 7:37 AM


Iano writes:
Could you spell out the false dichotomy using an example of something that I know exists - rather than something I know doesn't - for that is the area I was dealing with.
The only thing I have ever said is that your use of KNOWing is flawed. You hold up KNOWing as proof. I took it that this was a reason to believe. KNOWing (your definition of absolute accuracy) is (as I said) false.
Iano writes:
For us to exist relies on us knowing so
This is simply not so. Awareness does not dictate existance. Nor does existance dictate awareness.
Iano writes:
The switch to belief happened in the twinkling of an eye here. Can we first dismantle the knowing arguement before assuming that belief is the debris left over from said dismantling
Sure.
I contend that self awarness in the context of our dicussion is a given. I make an assumption that you and I are conscious entities. I contend we make this assumption to get anywhere.
Further assumptions about the nature of the universe are open to examination and citicism.
The fact that you KNOW you exist is an interesting fact but it ends there. All other questions are in no way connected with KNOWing you are real.
Everything else is belief open to error. The question of whether one really exists or not is not relevant to the question of the existance of anything that is not you.
It is a red herring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 7:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 186 of 310 (312723)
05-17-2006 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by iano
05-17-2006 6:57 AM


Mirror logic
My existance is contingant only on my knowing it. The existance of the computer on front of me is contingant only on my knowing it. The existance of God is contingant on my knowing it.
If things that I know exist don't actually, then my knowing is no guide to anything actually existing - not even myself.
You've got it the wrong way round. Your knowing you exist is contingent on you actually existing, and you knowing God is dependent on God existing.
A claim to knowledge about a thing isn't proof of that thing actually being true. If the thing is true, then you can be said to know it; if it isn't true then your claim to knowledge was mistaken.
Do you know you exist? Or, on what is your existance contingant?
Yes. My existence is contingent on many things, but not on my knowledge that I exist (which is actually a consequence of existing).

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 187 of 310 (312725)
05-17-2006 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by robinrohan
05-11-2006 10:10 AM


There's lots I believe on authority without actual inspection of any evidence whatsoever.
Such as?

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 188 of 310 (312726)
05-17-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by riVeRraT
05-17-2006 7:59 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
But...but...but...
Knowing that someone made it all up proves (to me) it is not real.
If someone told you about Paladine or Takisis and said they were gods, you would not 'get to know them better' because it is self evident that some guy deved them up sometime in the past.
I don't believe in gods because I am so damn sure it is ALL made up by people. Nothing has ever contradicted my perception of this single fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by riVeRraT, posted 05-17-2006 7:59 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 8:18 AM Larni has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 189 of 310 (312727)
05-17-2006 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Larni
05-17-2006 8:00 AM


The only thing I have ever said is that your use of KNOWing is flawed. You hold up KNOWing as proof. I took it that this was a reason to believe. KNOWing (your definition of absolute accuracy) is (as I said) false.
I don't hold up knowing as proof. I know I exist but that isn't proof of my existance - there is no proof of my existance as far as I can tell (proof being something which can demonstrate that I actually do exist)
This is simply not so. Awareness does not dictate existance. Nor does existance dictate awareness.
Self-evident(ce)? self-aware? Both knowledge based. But our existance doesn't depend on these. Okay...
If not these then what dictates existance? (I presume you won't refer to anything - the existance of which has relied on our existance to verify its existance - in order to verify our existance. That would be circular)
I contend that self awarness in the context of our dicussion is a given. I make..
Hang on a sec Larni. I am prepared not to plough a furrow down "the world is created by our own consiousness". But you've made a leap right out of the zone we are in.
We exist is a given. But we are looking at how we arrive at it being a given. Working back from the given - not forward.

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 190 of 310 (312728)
05-17-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Larni
05-17-2006 8:09 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
Knowing that someone made it all up proves (to me) it is not real.
Almost Freudian in its timing
{AbE} But it illustrates my position:
My knowing God revealed himself to me proves (to me) that God exists.
One needs compelling evidence to know things. Like, for you to know God is 'made up' you would need the kind of total evidence presented to you which could not be countered by any other evidence - not even by God showing up to you.
Have you got such compelling evidence. If not then I suggest you do not know God is made up. You only believe that from the less-than-compelling evidence you have got.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 8:09 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 8:27 AM iano has not replied
 Message 193 by Larni, posted 05-17-2006 8:28 AM iano has replied
 Message 196 by RickJB, posted 05-17-2006 8:39 AM iano has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 191 of 310 (312729)
05-17-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by iano
05-17-2006 7:37 AM


This is the same tactic you've used before - someone questions how your "knowledge" can be shown to be valid without empirical evidence, and then you blow the argument out into a debate about the very reality of existence.
I can't see how it helps you, and it is totally irrelevant. In THIS existence, THIS reality (whatever it constitutes - be it a physical reality, a product of your imagination or the work of magical fairies), you cannot produce emprical evidence to back up your "knowledge".
iano writes:
That one exists is self evident to oneself.
Self-evident. Evidence.
He said to oneself, Iano! In any case your very extistence can be empirically confirmed by third parties. There is no such third-party confirmation for your "knowledge" of God.
iano writes:
If there is no such thing as such knowledge - then there can be no certainty of our existance.
Ultimately there is no such certainty. We may all be a dream! Whatever the nature of reality, however, it does conform to many predictable rules and we are bound to work within them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 7:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 8:39 AM RickJB has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 192 of 310 (312730)
05-17-2006 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
05-17-2006 8:18 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
Yeah, I felt the knives of irony......

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 193 of 310 (312731)
05-17-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by iano
05-17-2006 8:18 AM


Re: Why I have a disbelief
Your right, I only believe your god is made up.
As you only believe your god is real.
Is this not the case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 8:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 8:52 AM Larni has replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 194 of 310 (312732)
05-17-2006 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
05-16-2006 7:27 AM


fallacycop writes:
Even though they had no knowlege of good and evil at the time of transgression?
The choice was between good and evil - truly free willed at this stage. They had Gods command or a lie from the serpent. They knew what God said and they knew that what the serpent said opposed what God said. God said they would surely die and the serpent said they wouldn't. Choice on who to believe.
That does not address the fact that Adam and Eve had no knowlege of good and evil at the time of the transgression.
Sure it was a bad choice. But how were they supposed to know that? They had no knowlege of good and evil. They couldn't tell.
So lets see. God puts them in the edem. For balance puts a snake with them. puts a tree smack in the center of the edem for temptation. and give them no skill to tell good from evil. To top it off, the fruit of the tree gives them the knowlege that they were lacking, so they will realize the mistake they've made, but too late. Finally god curses Adam and eve, and thousands of innocent generations after them for doing something at a time when they have no way to know any better than that. That's one mean god you've got here I have to say.
This jewis mithology will only make sense in the context of a parable, (or a fable). To try to interpret it literally is a logical that end, I'm afraid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by iano, posted 05-16-2006 7:27 AM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 195 of 310 (312733)
05-17-2006 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by RickJB
05-17-2006 8:18 AM


you cannot produce emprical evidence to back up your "knowledge".
So what? You keep on banging on about empirical evidence as if this was the only way to know anything. Either show that it is or quit tossing it the salad.
In any case your very existence can be empirically confirmed by third parties. There is no such third-party confirmation for your "knowledge" of God.
So what II? You mean that which looks to verify its existance invents a system whereby it verifies its own existance by referring to others who are trying to do the same thing. That's as circular as any other method of verifying our existance. We "self-verify" at the end of the day: empirical "I think therefore I am" etc, etc - no matter which way you look at it.
Where is the third (verified) party proof for our existance? There ain't none (until perhaps, he shows up)
Ultimately there is no such certainty. We may all be a dream!
I know..and alien playstation games. But for the purposes of this discussion we are taking our existance actually being as we percieve it. And the way we arrive at that notion is not through any verifcation process other than our self-verification. Simply knowing we exist and accepting that knowing as representing the way it is.
Edited by iano, : typo

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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