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Author Topic:   Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 1 of 101 (309608)
05-06-2006 10:15 AM


David Fraser, who worked for the UK Probation Service for 26 years, says the service is perverted by foolish ideology that upholds the right of criminals over those of victims. Each week, someone is raped or murdered by an offender supposedly under supervision. Mr Fraser maintains ”that if criminals are in prison, they cannot commit crimes.’
But crimes are committed daily by inmates. Prison populations in the UK and the USA are growing. Informed opinion favours building more prisons. No one seems overly concerned about construction and manning costs, let alone the pain to taxpayers who would foot the bills whilst continuing to suffer at the hands of criminals.
Few people have the stomach to bite the bullet and accept the one solution which is most vehemently denied. Capital punishment is the only sensible means to combat the plague of lawlessness.
It is my considered opinion that any person who consciously decides to commit a capital crime and in the due process of law is found guilty by a jury, should be given one of two options by the courts; 1) spend the rest of their natural life in prison without parole, or 2) be released from custody on the understanding that if they re-offend they will forfeit all rights of appeal and be put to death.
I further believe that the unacceptable rise in serious crimes by all age groups, particularly by children and young people, is a conscious display of contempt for societies that fail to lay down strict parameters for their behaviour and for their own safety. Who can respect any authority that refuses to enforce lawful discipline for the benefit of all members of society?
We are at war with terrorists. Why do we tolerate terror in classrooms? Why do we deny rapists and murderers the end they desire.
Edited by Malachi-II, : Test

Replies to this message:
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 Message 43 by Tusko, posted 05-24-2006 4:59 AM Malachi-II has replied

  
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Message 2 of 101 (312775)
05-17-2006 10:40 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
nwr
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From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 3 of 101 (312826)
05-17-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Malachi-II
05-06-2006 10:15 AM


Prison populations in the UK and the USA are growing.
I don't know about the UK. Here (USA), the prison population problem has a lot to do with a rigid insistence on sticking to failed drug policy, in spite of the clear evidence that it does not work.
Capital punishment is the only sensible means to combat the plague of lawlessness.
This is far from obvious. It might be more effective to improve education, and to find ways of creating better job opportunities for our youth.
I don't have any ideological objections to capital punishment. But I do live in Illinois where, not too long ago, it turned out that more than half the people on death row were innocent. That gives one pause.
At evcforum, we often deal with two different methods at getting at the truth. One of these is the scientific method, and the other is the method used by evangelical scholars.
As our debates have demonstrated, the scientific method does very well even though fallible. The methods of evangelical scholarship seem highly error prone, and are aimed more at finding "proof" of preconceived notions than at getting at the truth. Unfortunaly the methodology used in criminal investigation looks far more like that of evangelical scholarship than that of science. It is inevitable that capital punishment will lead to state sponsored murder of innocent people. If you want capital punishment, you had better first reform the criminal justice system.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 05-17-2006 12:53 PM nwr has replied
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 Message 12 by Malachi-II, posted 05-20-2006 3:30 PM nwr has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 4 of 101 (312840)
05-17-2006 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Malachi-II
05-06-2006 10:15 AM


2) be released from custody on the understanding that if they re-offend they will forfeit all rights of appeal and be put to death.
Should a murderer NOT re-offend then there is no punishment for the murder he committed. Dodgy.
Or do you mean that if he gets a parking ticket he will be put to death?
Does this not open the way for euthansia. Folk who are not likely to commit a capital offence decide to take the same risk as a person donating one of their kidneys and kill a loved one in pain
Or kill off a rich parent for the inheritance - knowing that capital crime is not their gig so they are not likely to ever arrive at the gallows
How does a person agree to this. Sign a document? Were they in their right mind or were they victims of entrapment "Life or freedom" One would have to be crazy not to take it -so later on one is executed for not being crazy but being human?

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 101 (312841)
05-17-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
05-17-2006 12:33 PM


Zowie, now evangelicals are responsible for the inability of the justice system to identify criminals properly? Wow, is there anything we aren't guilty of these days?

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 101 (312844)
05-17-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
05-17-2006 12:53 PM


I know ! I know!
Faith
Wow, is there anything we aren't guilty of these days?
Proselytizing.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 7 of 101 (312846)
05-17-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
05-17-2006 12:33 PM


As our debates have demonstrated, the scientific method does very well even though fallible
Whatever about the relative merits of a system of evaluating truth it would seem to me that until you have an infallible one then the death penalty should be abolished. You can always overturn a life penalty - not a death one

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DrFrost
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 101 (312865)
05-17-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
05-17-2006 12:33 PM


Hmmmm
quote:
As our debates have demonstrated, the scientific method does very well even though fallible. The methods of evangelical scholarship seem highly error prone, and are aimed more at finding "proof" of preconceived notions than at getting at the truth.
I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges. That being said, I think the reason you find the arguments around capital punishment to be more like "evangelical scholarship," as you call it, is because many of the questions are not such that the scientific method readily applies. Is it just and moral to kill these people or not? Is it civilized or barbaric? What is the value of a human life? Science doesn't really make moral judgements and there are some things that simply cannot be measured by a ruler or scale.
As far as capital punishment goes, I don't think we need it. I think the primary purpose of the justice system to to protect the public from criminals. This does not require the use of execution. (Some argue that execution is a powerful deterrent and protects the public by preventing crimes. The evidence I've seen to that end is mirky at best.)
What if a jury could sentence a man to death but if he was ever later proven to be innocent beyond reasonable doubt, they themselves would be executed. Would you ever sentence a man to death under such rules? What about when the crime is horrific and the evidence overwhelming as it is in cases like Duncan in Idaho, who was caught with one of his victims, etc?
For me it comes down to one question really. Which is the greater injustice: to put an innocent man to death or to commute the execution of a mass murderer to life in prison without the chance for parole?

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 9 of 101 (312893)
05-17-2006 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
05-17-2006 12:53 PM


Zowie, now evangelicals are responsible for the inability of the justice system to identify criminals properly?
I haven't said that at all. Apologies if what I said seemed to imply that.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 10 of 101 (312896)
05-17-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by DrFrost
05-17-2006 1:36 PM


Re: Hmmmm
I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges. That being said, I think the reason you find the arguments around capital punishment to be more like "evangelical scholarship," as you call it, is because many of the questions are not such that the scientific method readily applies.
There have been cases where the investigation turned up evidence that could have exonerated the accused. The scientific method is to follow that evidence. If that had been done, these innocent people would not have been convicted. However, the investigators too often ignored evidence that did not fit their preconceived conclusion as to what happened.
Proper use of the scientific method could indeed have avoided many of these problems.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 11 of 101 (313043)
05-18-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by iano
05-17-2006 1:02 PM


I agree completely, Iano (2x in one day)
The greatest argument for the death penalty is that one predisposed to murder may later be let out to perform more mayhem, if they were dead, then obviously they could not perform more mayhem. It has happened.
The greatest argument against the death penalty is that an innocent person could be put to death. It has happened.
Provided there was an actual punishment of life without hope of parole, the first argument would be rendered moot. It could happen.
That's all it would take to render the death penalty unnecessary. Also, I am more comfortable with a state that does not seek to play God, as well as a God that does not seek to play state.

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Replies to this message:
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Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 12 of 101 (313927)
05-20-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
05-17-2006 12:33 PM


Reply to nwr
I’m puzzled as to why you mentioned scientific methods and those used by evangelical scholars in arriving at truth when discussing capital punishment. Kindly explain. You go on to say that it is inevitable that capital punishment will lead to state sponsored murder of innocent people. That argument has been tirelessly rehearsed for years.
I would remind you, and others who raise the same question, that science has provided an infallible (?) safeguard against innocent people being found guilty of murder through DNA. If there is no conclusive DNA evidence to convict, then no conviction can be safe.
It might help if I state that I am a US citizen, born and raised in the S.F. Bay Area. My father was born in Illinois. I have lived in the UK for many years and have a reasonable knowledge of international affairs. Having lived abroad and visited many countries I consider myself to possess a healthy objectivity about national governments, their domestic and foreign policies, and social mores.
Tell me, the people on death row who were found innocent, were they duly released? Or are they still incarcerated? Your answer to my question will reveal to us both how much influence improved education and job opportunities will bear on world-wide penal systems.

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Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 13 of 101 (313929)
05-20-2006 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by iano
05-17-2006 12:51 PM


Reply to iano
You have not taken into account the punishment that a convicted murderer may well suffer in his or her community. Do you think they would have an easy escape? I doubt it. I should have said in my original message, ”if they re-offend a capital crime. . .’ Far too many murderers in the UK have recommitted capital crimes after early release from prison. Prisons do NOT rehabilitate people. More than 20,000 crimes per month are committed in the UK by people who have been through the prison system.
Do you have any comparable figures for people who have served prison terms in the US?

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 Message 4 by iano, posted 05-17-2006 12:51 PM iano has replied

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 Message 15 by iano, posted 05-20-2006 4:03 PM Malachi-II has replied

  
Malachi-II
Member (Idle past 6243 days)
Posts: 139
From: Sussex, England
Joined: 04-10-2006


Message 14 of 101 (313933)
05-20-2006 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by anglagard
05-18-2006 1:29 AM


Reply to anglagard
The danger of an innocent person being executed has 99% (if not 100%) been removed with the benefit of DNA.
I am more comfortable with people who are prepared to make and act on difficult decisions for the protection of citizens who wish to go about their lawful activities in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Incidentally, I am a US citizen and have every right to speak as one
Edited by Malachi-II, : Testing image

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 101 (313939)
05-20-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Malachi-II
05-20-2006 3:33 PM


Re: Reply to iano
You have not taken into account the punishment that a convicted murderer may well suffer in his or her community. Do you think they would have an easy escape? I doubt it.
I take the same account of it as an unpunished but convicted murderer might take of it were he to suspect that there would be 'conseqences' in his community. I'd simply move somewhere else. I don't suppose the authorities could prevent that - unless they were prepared to provide round-the-clock security so as to prevent vigilanteism. In your scenario we still have the situation were
a) a murderer who doesn't re-commit never pays for his crime.
b) if they chose to re-offend the week after release, the person on the receiving end will have been denied the opportunity that 20 years (or whatever life happens to be) might have had on the motivatons of the murderer
I should have said in my original message, ”if they re-offend a capital crime. . .’ Far too many murderers in the UK have recommitted capital crimes after early release from prison. Prisons do NOT rehabilitate people. More than 20,000 crimes per month are committed in the UK by people who have been through the prison system.
I agree that the prison system isn't a good one. They do not rehabilitate because:
a) largely they do not attempt to.
b) some people don't want to be rehabilitated.
In the case of b) I can't see how you can justify playing God with peoples lives to the extent of immediately releasing a person who has not had any opportunity for rehab that might be provided simply by time changing a persons view.
I think that punishment and rehabilitation should form co-central strands of the process. Your own proposal does neither. Neither does it contain any subtlety by way of discretion which would attempt to deal with the myriad levels as to why one person kills another. If you suppose murder is murder is murder then the paedophile who rapes and kills a child would get the same treatment as someone who had been provoked by a beating husband. For example.
Do you have any comparable figures for people who have served prison terms in the US?
I don't see that this is relevant to the discussion but no I don't

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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