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Author | Topic: Why Atheists don't believe | |||||||||||||||||||
RickJB Member (Idle past 5010 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Lets back up. My original post assumed that we were all in the same room. I feel that you knew that, but still decided to muddy the waters by exploiting my omission.
Now my point was that we can all SEE the table. Even if we ARE in different rooms there is always the option to go and look for oneself to get empirical confimation. Now if whilst we are in that room we all we declare we "know" different Gods, how do we know who is right?
iano writes: Go look is how you tell. Look at what?
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fallacycop Member (Idle past 5541 days) Posts: 692 From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil Joined: |
iano writes: You only think your right. I know I am It appears that your standards to decide wheater you actually know something is subpar compared to the standards of some of the other posters to this forum
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
As I have said countless times....your existance and your total faith (yes faith) in your reality and existance is NOT linked in anyway with a belief in the divine. My existance pre-knowing God. Self-verification is the only way of knowing I exist. Or that empiricism says something sensible to me. Now God turns up. Another self. I can verify he exists and is separate from me as I can that you exist and are separate from me too. God must turn up in order for me to verify that he exists. And if he turns up I can verify he exists - simply using the same tool I a have had ample and automatic use of all my life. The one applied to me and you and others. Okay? Right. If God doesn't exist then the verification tool I used to verify him, you and myself is faulty. It is useless. If I can't verify myself, I can not verify anything at all. An unverified existance ceases to be one.
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Larni Member (Idle past 184 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Iano writes: Self-verification is the only way of knowing I exist. True
Iano writes: I can verify he exists and is separate from me as I can that you exist and are separate from me too. True
Iano writes: God must turn up in order for me to verify that he exists. And if he turns up I can verify he exists - simply using the same tool I a have had ample and automatic use of all my life. The one applied to me and you and others. Okay? True
Iano writes: Right. If God doesn't exist then the verification tool I used to verify him, you and myself is faulty. It is useless. If I can't verify myself, I can not verify anything at all. An unverified existance ceases to be one. False. It means you are wrong in your specific assertation that your god is real. This is going no where Iano. I'm going home to play Oblivion.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
You (it appears) do not doubt in this way. I entertain a modicum of doubt and it is this: I could be an aliens playstation game.
I have looked long and hard a seen bugger all. If you see something when I see nothing I can only conclude that you are deluded. When we were young, my mother used to bring us for walks down by the Dodder river in Dublin. Just as she had done as a kid, she began to teach us to fish for pinkines (tiny little fish). We arrived down with our glass jars and little bag-nets attached to bamboo poles. "Look, Look!" she would cry excitedly "There they are - millions of them" We'd look and see nothing "Just THERE!! right in front of you yes right there!!" We could still see nothing. Mam was looking through the surface at the fish below. Us kids were looking at the reflection off the surface and couldn't see a thing but our own faces. Mam wasn't deluded. She pointed at something that was there alright. The problem was we didn't know how to look
What about people who have looked for gods My mam looked for gods. She searched her whole life. Born a Catholic, she looked at TM, Occult, Darwin, New Ageism, Zen, Existentialism - the works. She drove herself to distractions looking. Eventually she looked through the surface and found what swam underneath all the time. And then she told me because I was looking and I came to see too.. And so I tell you what she told me. Ask him to help you find him. Ask him to lead you. Let him know that its your heart that wants him and not just your desire to satisfy intellect. Tell him that you are prepared to accept whatever knowing him might mean for you. But do let him know. Right. no smokes left and a bloody raging headache. Thats me out for now, Later dude
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: All of science is inferred. If you reject indirect evidence and inference, you reject science entirely.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
If you reject indirect evidence and inference, you reject science entirely. Not really. I can simply place it on the stove of tentitiveness and wait for it to boil. Warm water has a myriad of uses. But if one is thirsty and desires that thirst quenchers-uber-thirst quenchers: a cup of tea - then boiling water is really the only one that will suffice. I'm not anti-science Schraf. I think its great. But lets not suppose it can answer what it cannot. Who am "I"? Why am "I" here? A tentitive answer which sits luke warm on the stove saying maybe this and maybe that and maybe the other doesn't really cut it with me
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nator Member (Idle past 2190 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
You have skirted the issue again.
You said that you would be impressed with "in front of your face" evidence that science didn't have, implying that this basis in inference is why you rejected evolution. Sorry, that's a double standard. If you reject the ToE because it's based upon inference, then you must reject the existence of electrons, too. Nobody's ever directly observed one of those, either.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
You said that you would be impressed with "in front of your face" evidence that science didn't have, implying that this basis in inference is why you rejected evolution. Sorry, that's a double standard. I don't see the double standard Schraf. I have evidence plain before my face (like this computer screen) which needs no theory uin order for it to be (theory didn't even make it work - theory describes how it works).. or I have what I consider inferred evidence, evidences which need a theory to string them together (a fossil says nothing to me by itself) Two classes of evidence. Not double standards
If you reject the ToE because it's based upon inference, then you must reject the existence of electrons, too. Nobody's ever directly observed one of those, either. An electron to me is a model based on inference. I don't know what it looks like or if the word 'electron' won't disappear from our parlance like 'blood-letting' has. Current and tentative. If useful (like warm water) then use it.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5928 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
iano
Sorry for not answering sooner but your reply did not show up at first. I recorded a reply first from RiVerRat and answered him. Weird software bug I guess. Anyway here we go.ssume this to mean that you would not do this to your child. And this is iano writes: Whether it is those you listed or the summation of them given by Jesus then answer is the same. I ignore/break them more often than not. I don't see your point This was a response to a previous statement of yours here.
In your dreams I suspect if he gave full revelation of himself with us in our current state then widespread insanity would follow. For people would have reason to despair. For they cannot live the life demanded by a holy God. What I was trying to point out is that if you check on the laws that the biblical God is insisting on then of course no one can live the life demanded thereof because in a lot of cases it is wrong to do so. These ones in particular are immoral in my humble opinion.
Exd 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. Exd 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. Exd 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Exd 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Exd 22:3 If the sun be risen upon him, [there shall be] blood [shed] for him; [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. sidelined writes: So you are saying that God needed the serpent to tempt Eve into partaking of the fruit which she clearly had not partaken of as per her statement Do you mean to tell me that God could not know that they would succumb to temptation? That they ate of the tree produces what great detriment to us or God. Why is it a crime to have knowledge of good and evil? Is this not the basis for any type of morality,relative or otherwise,a sense of right and wrong? The supposed punishment fits the crime in what way? We disobey God and why would this be a problem for him? That he needed to tempt innocent people {who did not yet have a sense of right and wrong} in order for them to consider eating of the fruit which they would not otherwise dospeaks of a problem on the part of God not humans. sidelined writes: At this point she has no knowledge of good and evil and is innocent and obeying of the command given to her.She cannot therefore concieve that the serpent is lying to her since this is an evil act. Would you seriously do this to a child of yours? Under any circumstances? God says, the serpent says. We cannot use the image of a modern day child in order to compare - for a modern day child is born a sinner so one needs to make overly sure that they won't fall into temptation. *sigh* Fine but this does not answer the question. Let us simply have you tell us that you would do this to Adam and Eve who I assume are innocent correct?
I don't see any mention of Adam and Eves culpability here. You seem to think that God cannot make a free-willed person capable of making a choice.That culpability can never have been theirs. No doubt if they had chosen to obey God then you would accuse the choice as having been rigged in favor of them doing so (well you wouldn't actually - there have been a fall in the first place!) That is completely incorrect. My point is that after he gave them the right to choose they chose not to eat and God has a serpent tempt them in order to entrap them. Since it is a given that God {being omnipotent} knew that they would sucuumb one is left to wonder is God's motive for this? Why would he get so angry when he knew what would happen? What,again, is the great horror of the act that inflicts a curse of that magnitude when God himself was completely aware of the outcome? Why give freewill when you yourself are not ready to accept the outcome either way?
iano writes: Maybe you can think of how to create fully free willed beings without them being able to chose against you? If you could, it would strenghten your position. sidelined writes: I would allow them to do as they pleased since after all there is no damage they can do that I cannot undo in the first place if I am limitless in abilty and power.So here is the edict I would place on them. You are free to do whatever you wish to do as long as it does not interfere with the freewill choice of another human being. This is my only rule and if you do not like it,oh well, deal with it.Screw with my rule and I will make your eyes bubble in their sockets. Any questions? Good! Carry on. iano writes: So you have a lot of people with bubbling eye sockets (curious that blindness is the result in your model). They will have chosen against you. Like to try again? Or maybe do as he did and include a plan of redemption from the get go - knowing full well what free-willed (but necessary) choice will lead to. But again we must ask why God has a problem with the choices we make if he demands that we have free choice in the first place. What is the point of the punishment? To teach them a lesson? To instill fear in them? If you build a machine that has a great likelihood of falling apart but you will not change the designs to make the product more reliable and then as a bonus you toss a wrench into the works and it ends up failing your strict requirements for reliabilty you would blame the machine you made? That is madness. I will try to get to responding to the rest of your post another day as I am at present pressed for time. Again i am sorry I took so long to respond.
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iano Member (Idle past 1961 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
These ones in particular are immoral in my humble opinion. No probs on delay SL. Just dealing with the first section of your post (down to Exodus) - for I am on my way out the door too. The question is whether the proscribed 'reaction' is warranted given the 'action'? Eye for an eye it largely seems to be - or less than that I would argue. Are you arguing against the justice of eye for an eye? If so why? If one is to leaves aside grace for a moment (which has nothing to do with the application of justice) then Eye for an Eye seems like perfect justice to me. You rob 1 dollar from me then justice (not emotionalism "he did it first to me therefore he should pay MORE") says that I, when caught, should pay a dollar back to you. To bring it all back to equilibrium as it were. I won't go on for I know not if this is your tack?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 436 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Yes, very good. I am not making a case for God here, just explaining that the same way you know you love your mother, is the same way you will know God exists, when and if you meet Him.
Inothers words you will know, because it will come from you.
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kongstad Member (Idle past 2890 days) Posts: 175 From: Copenhagen, Denmark Joined: |
Well for startes my wife told me she changed shifts with a coworker, so she had this day of, and was at work yesterday.
I never heard this conversation, so I have no evidence of it, but I generally accept her statements on faith. The general principle of accepting her statements is based on experience, but each specific instance is unique and without evidence. If she came home and said she had had tea with the queen, I wouldn't accept it first hand for example, since this seems quite unreasonable. I generally accept experts statements on their area of expertise on faith. If I find the statements unreasonable in my own experience, I tend to be more sceptic than when it confirms my other experiences. I also believe that there are no invisible soundless flying mice in the room with me now. This is not based on any evidence at all. I also believe that there are no 10 by 10 by 10 meter objects made of swiss cheese in orbit around pluto. Again purely on blind faith. /Soren
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5854 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
You supping from the RBL bottle too SNC? No because you and I can both look at and examine the same table, chair, rock, etc. etc. Look dude, I have definintely been to harsh on you here. If believing in whatever stuff you want to believe in works for you then fine. my position as an atheist is that I can't 100% say that all possible gods do not exist... but I can say with 100% certainly that every god I personally have been exposed to does not exist. This is simply by seeing that the existence of these god/god(s) is incompatible with reality.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I was an atheist for most of my life, and the reason was that some people I considered to be smart told me when I was a teenager it was stupid to believe in God, that there was no evidence for God and that people needed to grow up and face life without God. Well I'd never depended on God personally before anyway, though I had a sort of thin belief based on childhood church attendance, so I had no problem giving up my belief such as it was, for a life of "mature self-reliance," the approval of smart friends and teachers, and of course lots of fun kinds of sin. I felt a little pang of loss but that was about it.
Edited by Faith, : grammar, clarity
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