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Author Topic:   Consciousness Continued: A fresh start
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 31 of 84 (312919)
05-17-2006 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
05-17-2006 10:55 AM


Re: My questions on your opinions
Parasomnium writes:
could you nevertheless tell me what the soul is exactly, according to you?
Catholic Scientist writes:
Exactly!? Sheesh . .I dunno.
Ah. Fair enough.
The soul is the immortal component of your existence that moves on to the afterlife after you die. Its what makes you, You. Its the ”image of god’ that makes us his children.
Hmmm... that's a rather exact description of the soul, wouldn't you agree? I thought you said you didn't know. You confuse me.
I think of this life as a proving ground for the afterlife. Kindof a place for your soul to develop in preparation for the afterlife. It allows you to figure out what it is to exist and what you need to be happy, in this life and the next.
Please tell me, where was your soul before you were born? Is there a "beforelife" in your opinion?

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2006 10:55 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2006 4:14 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 84 (312937)
05-17-2006 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Parasomnium
05-17-2006 3:30 PM


Re: My questions on your opinions
Parasomnium writes:
could you nevertheless tell me what the soul is exactly, according to you?
Catholic Scientist writes:
Exactly!? Sheesh . .I dunno.
Ah. Fair enough.
The soul is the immortal component of your existence that moves on to the afterlife after you die. Its what makes you, You. Its the ”image of god’ that makes us his children.
Hmmm... that's a rather exact description of the soul, wouldn't you agree? I thought you said you didn't know. You confuse me.
Sorry for the confusion. I don't know exactly what the soul is but if pressed for a definition that's what I would say. I know what it is exactly, according to me, and if that is what you were asking then you have my answer but I don't know what the soul exactly is, I can only give you my take on it. Does that make sense?
Please tell me, where was your soul before you were born? Is there a "beforelife" in your opinion?
No beforelife IMO. I think your soul is born when you are born (not at birth though). I also think that your soul develops as you develop, like, there is some level of maturity to your soul. As you become aware of yourself, your soul starts to learn, or something.
For example, when an infant dies they were never really aware that they were even here. I don't think their soul would be developed enough to experience the afterlife as a heaven or hell, much like their life here was void of any real experences.
Another example will be the death of a young rockstar whose enjoyment of life came from sex and drugs. After he dies he will no longer be able to have sex or do drugs as he has no body. I think his afterlife would suck, or be hell, because he hasn't trained his soul on the ways of enjoyment.
Last example is the nice old priest who lived his life with non-physical pleasures. Emotional happiness of faith hope and love. These are the kinds of things that transend physical happiness and, IMO, are the kinds of things that your soul will be able to experience in the afterlife. If you learn how to be happy with these feelings then your afterlife will be good, or a heaven.
Now, I don't think physical pleasures are bad, its just that you don't want to have your happiness based on them, because when you die you ain't gonna have a body no more.
I can elaborate more if you care, but I just ran out of time......
Please ask more questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2006 3:30 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 33 of 84 (312943)
05-17-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by sidelined
05-17-2006 10:54 AM


quote:
Since electrical activity is responsible for consciousness how does a soul manage to be conscious if it does not partake of electrical activity that we have established to be necessary for consciousness?
My mistake: I meant that there is a relationship between electrical activity in the brain and consciousness. I will go correct that now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by sidelined, posted 05-17-2006 10:54 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by sidelined, posted 05-21-2006 1:59 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 34 of 84 (312946)
05-17-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Parasomnium
05-17-2006 3:06 PM


Re: Some weaknesses in your theory
quote:
Perhaps you should define 'natural', because it isn't clear what you mean by it. What other ways are there, besides natural, for things to happen in the physical world? Is consciousness, in your view, a non-natural phenomenon?
By natural I mean by physical nature.
Everything that happens naturally is the result of physical interactions. The soul would be supernatural according to scientists because they don't want to call the soul natural since they don't believe in it. So we will call physical things natural, and non-physical things SUCH AS the soul supernatural.
quote:
So the soul 'reads' and 'writes' the brain? How does it do that? There must be some form of physical interaction. How does the non-physical soul accomplish that?
And what is the meaning of the status of the brain that the soul 'reads'? Suppose the soul reads: "I want to debate with Guido", then where does that desire come from? Who is this 'I'? And how does the brain know about the existence of Guido?
I never said that the soul did that. That only happens in my analogy. The soul corresponds to and affects the chemical and electrical activity in the brain. The concept of I is not of consciousness though, it is of self-awareness. Self-awareness need not be something conscious. A computer could SIMULATE it. Self-awareness comes from the brain though it is aided by consciousness.
The desire to debate with me comes from the union of the activity of your brain and your soul. You soul is the real you. Your brain holds your memories, and your desires and it is a faculty for thinking. Your soul also holds desires, but these desires are different from your brains desires. I am trying not to be too religious so I won't go into that. This is mostly supposed to be theoretical.
Its very difficult for me to explain. Your brain does play a big role in your desires, your pleasures, etc. And it probably works exactly the way that scientists say it does in the brain except that it requires something extra to aid it. This is the soul. So yes, chemical reactions do appear to cause feeling. But it is the syncornization of these chemical reactions and the soul that actually make you experience the feeling.
I apologize for my lack of clarity. Keep asking questions if you wish me to elaborate more or if I seem to contradict myself.
quote:
Then what does the brain do exactly? What is the nature of the input? And of the output? If the brain simply processes the input and produces output, and if the brain is just a physical 'machine', then isn't the soul dependent on an automaton, and hence, by extension, itself an automaton? If not, then what does the soul need the brain for?
The soul is not fed input and it does not give output. It merely affects the brain and corresponds to it. Information from your senses are inputed into your brain. Your brain then processes it. Your soul syncronizes with this process and becomes conscious of the information based on the activity in the brain. The process is also affected by your free will. So when you want to make a choice, the chemical and electrical activity in the brain is affected.
Edited by Guidosoft, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2006 3:06 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2006 5:41 PM Christian7 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 84 (312950)
05-17-2006 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
05-16-2006 5:27 PM


Re: my opinions on your opinions
Catholic Scientist writes:
I think that the brain and the soul do communicate. This is where my view on consciousness comes into play. I think that consciousness is the medium by which the brain and the soul communicate.
This goes well back in the thread, (#7) but I wanted to follow up on it. I'm wondering why you would think that. We have four terms that we often seem to use interchangeably; consciousness, mind, spirit and soul. I frankly don't know how to differentiate between them.
Enough people seem to have experienced out of body experiences while they were brain dead to indicate that they actually do occur. I realize that there are those who have alternative explanations but that too is a matter of opinion.
The question then is which of these four possibilities, (or are they all one and the same?), is functioning when the physical brain has stopped functioning?
Why do you believe that we require an additional metaphysical body between the body and the soul?
Catholic Scientist writes:
I think that consciousness is a result of the brain. It is a non-physical thing that comes from a physical thing, what you claim is impossible. But this impossibility is what allows for the soul, a non-physical thing, to interact with the brain, a physical thing. The interaction between the physical and non-physical is something that others who have posted have had a problem with. Our consciousness is not short of a miracle, or ”magical’, and it is how physical and non-physical things can interact, because it is a non-physical thing that is the result of a physical thing.
This is one of the issues that puzzles me. It seems that the entire physical world is made up of particles, some having mass and some not, and even at that we can only observe 5% of things anyway. As I, with my less than minimal knowledge, understand that scientists seem to think the these particles are in reality bits of energy or maybe even thought. We don't really even know what energy is. If the physical world is a projection from some other dimensional projector then we are starting to see the lines between the physical and the metaphysical to become extremely blurred.
Interesting thread but in the end we can only make our best guess and then we are into areas of faith.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-16-2006 5:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2006 5:35 PM GDR has not replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 84 (312956)
05-17-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
05-17-2006 4:55 PM


Re: my opinions on your opinions
Catholic Scientist writes:
I think that the brain and the soul do communicate. This is where my view on consciousness comes into play. I think that consciousness is the medium by which the brain and the soul communicate.
This goes well back in the thread, (#7) but I wanted to follow up on it. I'm wondering why you would think that.
Well, I think the soul exists and I know me and my brain exist. I also think that what I do has an effect on my soul. So, there has to be some way for the body, physical, to interact with the soul, non-physical. Consciousness, to me, seems like a good way. It is a result of the brain but it has some non-physical aspects to it. It sorta sits in between the physical and non-physical so that is why I think that.
We have four terms that we often seem to use interchangeably; consciousness, mind, spirit and soul. I frankly don't know how to differentiate between them.
I usually use spirit and soul interchangeably but from what I’ve read from other people, I’m the oddball. I think you could use consciousness and mind interchangeably too.
The question then is which of these four possibilities, (or are they all one and the same?), is functioning when the physical brain has stopped functioning?
IMO, the consciousness/mind stop functioning and the spirit/soul continues to function.
Why do you believe that we require an additional metaphysical body between the body and the soul?
To me it seems like more of a result of the soul interacting with body. That’s why we became conscious.
Also, it solves, for me, the problem of something non-physical interacting with something physical because the consciousness, to me, is somewhere in-between in the first place.
This is one of the issues that puzzles me. It seems that the entire physical world is made up of particles, some having mass and some not, and even at that we can only observe 5% of things anyway. As I, with my less than minimal knowledge, understand that scientists seem to think the these particles are in reality bits of energy or maybe even thought. We don't really even know what energy is. If the physical world is a projection from some other dimensional projector then we are starting to see the lines between the physical and the metaphysical to become extremely blurred.
That’s interesting but for me when your scientific/mathematical models start getting so strange that it makes reality look impossible, then you need to start heading back the other way, towards reality, because we really are here and we’re really real. Perhaps a model that is a projection of higher dimension onto our 3d world can be used to describe some phenomena, but for me, I’m stuck in this 3d world and would rather figure this one out.
Interesting thread but in the end we can only make our best guess and then we are into areas of faith.
Well yeah, but its all in good fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 05-17-2006 4:55 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2006 5:49 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 37 of 84 (312957)
05-17-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
05-17-2006 4:55 PM


Re: my opinions on your opinions
quote:
We have four terms that we often seem to use interchangeably; consciousness, mind, spirit and soul. I frankly don't know how to differentiate between them.
This is my perspective on those four. I use none of them interchangably.
Consciousness - The medium by which sensation, thoughts, and perceptions are experienced.
Spirit - In Christianity, the spirit is not the soul. The spirit is something that is dead when we are born. The spirit is the part of us that communicates with God. When we recieve the holy spirit by accepting Christ, we are then enabled to have a direct connection with God. Now this of course, is a religious perspective on the spirit. Most people just interchange this with soul.
Soul - The real us. The part of us that consists of are Consciousness and Free Will. Different souls will chose different paths. They have different core tendencies. Now, souls are not naturaly conscious. They have the potential for consciousness that is, by default they are unconscious but when they are conscious it will always be the same consciousness because it is the same person.
Mind - The mind is that which concieves. This is not the consciousness. The mind is the combination of the soul and the activity of thinking, recollecting, imagining, etc in the brain. The mind can make decisions, it can numbers together. It can do lots of stuff, but it is not interchangable with consciousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 05-17-2006 4:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 38 of 84 (312958)
05-17-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Christian7
05-17-2006 4:43 PM


Re: Some weaknesses in your theory
Guido, first something about the fact that you alter your opening post after you come to realize that something should be formulated differently for some reason, like clarity for instance, or you changing your mind about something. In principle, it's a good thing that you are willing to do this as a result of discussions with others, but you might want to use a different method.
I think it would better if you left your original post intact and just added amendments at the end. That way, other people's quotes of your original post will keep making sense. If someone quotes you, and you change your text, then the quotes won't be accurate anymore, and that muddles the discussion.
I hope you still have the original text of your opening post and would be willing to restore it and add a sort of "editing history" at the end.
---
Guidosoft writes:
Your brain holds your memories, and your desires and it is a faculty for thinking.
So, when my soul is on its own - after my brain died - I remember nothing? And I can't think anymore? If that's what the afterlife is like, then I think I'll give it a pass. Come to think of it, that kind of afterlife is rather like oblivion, which I think is what really awaits me. So maybe we agree after all...
Your soul also holds desires, but these desires are different from your brains desires.
My brain has desires of its own?! Well, have you ever...
This is mostly supposed to be theoretical.
Could you think of a way your theory could be falsified? What experiment can we do that could possibly rule out the existence of the soul?
Your brain does play a big role in your desires, your pleasures, etc. And it probably works exactly the way that scientists say it does in the brain except that it requires something extra to aid it.
Where does this requirement come from? Can you make it clear somehow that it wouldn't work without this "something extra"?
So yes, chemical reactions do appear to cause feeling. But it is the syncornization of these chemical reactions and the soul that actually make you experience the feeling.
That seems like a very strange dichotomy to me. What is a feeling? Or, more to the point, what is a feeling other than an experience? To me, the two are synonymous. But if I read you correctly, you would allow for the possibility of unexperienced feelings, a concept I find utterly incomprehensible.
I apologize for my lack of clarity.
No need to apologize, that's what we are having this conversation for.
Keep asking questions [...]
I will.
So when you want to make a choice, the chemical and electrical activity in the brain is affected.
Could you tell me a little about the mechanism your theory proposes for this?
Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Christian7, posted 05-17-2006 4:43 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Christian7, posted 05-17-2006 6:02 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 39 of 84 (312959)
05-17-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
05-17-2006 10:59 AM


Re: my opinions on your opinions
quote:
course, that is if you believe in God. lol.
Liek I said, if I believed this I would be a determinist and believe that free will doesn't exist.
Let's just assume for a moment that quantam particles take random walks.(Maybe they do) The random actions of particles are on to small of a scale to fit in with the grand system of the brain. Free will would be an emergent property of a complex system in the brain. How would the random actions of particles on such a small scale fit in. Besides, they are random. Free will is not random. Free will is intentional and deliberate. You mine as well believe in determinism.
quote:
I don't think the physical world is an illusion. This is probably where our opinions begin to differ. At least you know where I stand on the situation now. Our opinions on the soul aren't too far apart.
I never said that the physical world was an illusion. I said that our presence here is an illusion because we are the soul not the brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2006 10:59 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 40 of 84 (312960)
05-17-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
05-17-2006 5:35 PM


Re: my opinions on your opinions
Catholic Scientist writes:
it solves, for me, the problem of something non-physical interacting with something physical because the consciousness, to me, is somewhere in-between in the first place.
I think you are just pushing the problem away. Instead of something non-physical interacting with something physical, now you have something non-physical interacting with something half-physical, and something half-physical interacting with something physical. Actually, now you have two problems.
A better way to solve the problem would be, in my opinion, to conclude that there is no non-physical component.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-17-2006 5:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Chronos
Member (Idle past 6225 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 41 of 84 (312961)
05-17-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Christian7
05-17-2006 8:02 AM


So, the soul, would correspond with the electrical activity in the brain by being conscious of those areas. There need no be any communication.
Are you more or less saying that the soul exists in a parallel (supernatural?) universe? How do the soul and brain remain in synch w/o communication?
And, the soul could alter the electrical activity of the brain to affect it based on your decisions. But those decisions would be aided by the activity in your brain. The union of the brain and soul makeup the mind.
How does the soul manipulate the brain w/o being physical or communicating with the brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Christian7, posted 05-17-2006 8:02 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Christian7, posted 05-17-2006 6:08 PM Chronos has not replied

  
Chronos
Member (Idle past 6225 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 42 of 84 (312962)
05-17-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Christian7
05-17-2006 7:59 AM


No because I explained that consciousness can't arise from physical matter alone.
No you haven't.
Not yet having a sufficient entirely physical explanation does not rule out the possibility of there being one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Christian7, posted 05-17-2006 7:59 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 43 of 84 (312963)
05-17-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Parasomnium
05-17-2006 5:41 PM


Re: Some weaknesses in your theory
Sorry, I can't restore the original, but I won't change it any more. Instead I will just use the gen reply button to ammend it.
quote:
So, when my soul is on its own - after my brain died - I remember nothing? And I can't think anymore? If that's what the afterlife is like, then I think I'll give it a pass. Come to think of it, that kind of afterlife is rather like oblivion, which I think is what really awaits me. So maybe we agree after all...
You would be correct if it were not for Christ.
He gives us a new body in heaven. That includes a new brain where we remember only the good things that happened to us on earth. So Christ takes our soul once we die and gives us a glorified body. That is only if you accepted Christ. If you did not accept Christ then unfortianitly your fate is eternal hell.
quote:
My brain has desires of its own?! Well, have you ever...
What I mean is some desires are developed from your life experiences. So these are based on memory and thus stored in the brain. They are fine tuned by a combination of the real you (the soul) and your enviorment. The desires of your soul are just what you are. Will you ultimatley chose God or Evil, Christ or no Christ.
quote:
Could you think of a way your theory could be falsified? What experiment can we do that could possibly rule out the existence of the soul?
Conduct an experiment in which two machines share the same consciousness (this machine could be a human being if you like). Then watch how they respond. Obviously this requires technology that awaits us in the future. If there is no soul then you should be able to connect brains together somehow and make them share the same consciousness.
quote:
Where does this requirement come from? Can you make it clear somehow that it wouldn't work without this "something extra"?
Well, your desires come from a combination of what you are (your soul) ,your enviorment and genetics. So you would see a big difference in the development of your desires if you removed the soul from the equation.
Also, they aren't real desires enless they are conscious ones. They would just be simulated ones. You know why I believe physical processes cannot create consciousness.
quote:
That seems like a very strange dichotomy to me. What is a feeling? Or, more to the point, what is a feeling other than an experience? To me, the two are synonymous. But if I read you correctly, you would allow for the possibility of unexperienced feelings, a concept I find uttely incomprehensible.
What you say is 100% correct. Without the soul there would be no feeling. It is the the union of the activity and the soul that cause feeling. But you can see evidence of how the brain is aiding in causing feeling. You won't see a communication between the brain and the soul however because that is not how it works.
quote:
So when you want to make a choice, the chemical and electrical activity in the brain is affected.
Could you tell me a little about the mechanism your theory proposes for this?
I'll figure that out when I get my phd. But seriouslly, uh. I still have to think about exactly how that would work. I have a pretty good concept already but since I don't have a 100% thorough understanding of the brain I can't develop that part of it yet. But I will think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2006 5:41 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 44 of 84 (312964)
05-17-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Chronos
05-17-2006 5:52 PM


quote:
Are you more or less saying that the soul exists in a parallel (supernatural?) universe? How do the soul and brain remain in synch w/o communication?
I am not saying that the soul exists "in" anything. I am saying that the soul simply exists.
The soul and brain remain synchronized because it just does. For example, you could have a particle far away that keeps in synch with another particle. There is no connection in space between the two, or at least not one that we know of.
quote:
How does the soul manipulate the brain w/o being physical or communicating with the brain?
The soul is not physical in the sense that is has no physical properties such as shape, color, density, size, position, etc. It is indeed physical in the sense that it can interact with the brain. For the most part I say that the soul is non-physical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Chronos, posted 05-17-2006 5:52 PM Chronos has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Philip, posted 05-17-2006 7:04 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 45 of 84 (312965)
05-17-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Chronos
05-17-2006 5:56 PM


quote:
Not yet having a sufficient entirely physical explanation does not rule out the possibility of there being one.
Like wise in the same manner I argue in favor of the existance of the soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Chronos, posted 05-17-2006 5:56 PM Chronos has not replied

  
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