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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 256 of 300 (312265)
05-15-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by purpledawn
05-15-2006 8:29 PM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
Purpledawn,
IMO, these two verses do not describe the same event.
Correct. Two judgments are being discribed. One in Matthew 25 and another in Revelation 20.
Matthew 25 refers to "all nations" alive at the time of His coming to the earth before the millennial kingdom. Revelation 20 speaks of all the dead being raised at the second resurrection after the millennium to stand before the great white throne.
Christ is the judge of the living and the dead. But He doesn't judge them all at one time. Matthew is the judgment of the living before the millennium (Acts 10:42; 2 Tim. 4:1). Christ's judgment of the dead after the millennium is recorded in Revelation 20:11-15.
Your concept of "ultimate judgment", i.e. all at one time last judgment - is probably attributing to your misunderstanding of the matter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by purpledawn, posted 05-15-2006 8:29 PM purpledawn has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 300 (312268)
05-15-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by purpledawn
05-15-2006 8:29 PM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
1. I did address your message 217. I said it is irrevelant to this debate and you have not shown that it is. If you choose to pick and choose what is valid scripture and what is not, we're wasting our time since all you need do then is X out what is nonsupportive of your position.
2. When Jesus comes is also irrevelant so long as both end up in the same place ultimately. So it's essentially an off topic strawman which does nothing to bolster your looser argument.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by purpledawn, posted 05-15-2006 8:29 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by purpledawn, posted 05-16-2006 5:37 AM Buzsaw has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 258 of 300 (312311)
05-16-2006 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Buzsaw
05-15-2006 11:33 PM


Re: No "Evidence" There, buzsaw.
buzsaw writes:
Everlasting fire means just that with no mention of fuel consumed.
Fire is fire and fuel is consumed. If you are postulating some kind of "special" fire that doesn't consume its fuel, then you would have to back that up Biblically.
Add to these the account of the rich man being tormented and not consumed....
Does it say that the rich man was "not consumed"? Does it say that he was tormented eternally?

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 Message 255 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2006 11:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 259 of 300 (312321)
05-16-2006 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Buzsaw
05-15-2006 11:49 PM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
quote:
1. I did address your message 217. I said it is irrevelant to this debate and you have not shown that it is. If you choose to pick and choose what is valid scripture and what is not, we're wasting our time since all you need do then is X out what is nonsupportive of your position.
2. When Jesus comes is also irrevelant so long as both end up in the same place ultimately. So it's essentially an off topic strawman which does nothing to bolster your looser argument.
In response to a Faith's Message 191, in Message 196 I gave a very respectful explanation of how I study the Bible. So when you asked the question:
buzsaw writes:
But madear, what then do you do with these words of Jesus in Matthew 25:41?
I clarified that I assumed you had read the previous posts and asked that you keep that in mind.
Since you're responding to Message 203 I'm assuming you also read Message 196 which is the beginning of the Whitewash series. If you have, then you are aware of how I study and learn from the Bible. This thread on Matthew will help you understand my view of that author's work. Please keep all that in mind when you read my response.
Because I do know that you have a lot of years of Bible Study under your belt, I trusted that you would explain why you feel my understanding is wrong or contradictory instead of just saying it. I'm truly disappointed.
So back to Message 1.
No one has clearly shown me that Gehenna, which has been erroneously translated as "hell", was an example of eternal (unending) torment.
No one has clearly shown me that the Lake of Fire, which is only mentioned in Revelation, is referring to Gehenna or vice versa other than by tradition.
No one has clearly shown me that my conclusions are wrong. I've been told, but no one has clearly shown me my error given my unique way of reading the authors of the Bible.
I can't rethink my conclusions if I'm not given anything to think about.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2006 11:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jaywill, posted 05-16-2006 9:35 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 274 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2006 11:50 PM purpledawn has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 260 of 300 (312372)
05-16-2006 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by purpledawn
05-16-2006 5:37 AM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
No one has clearly shown me that Gehenna, which has been erroneously translated as "hell", was an example of eternal (unending) torment.
This is now repetition of a point and a new point.
First, the repetition of what was already written. But this time with concise and briefer words.
Jesus taught that God had additional authority to cast into Gehenna after the killing of a person took place. If He was talking about the city's repository of burning trash it should require no additional divine authority to cast a dead person's corpse into that Gehenna. The Gehenna that Jesus refers to therefore MUST refer to a realm in which God has additional authority to place a person which man does not have.
It is really not that necessary to know the physics, or science, or the temperature of the fire, or how in the world God has a fire acting on an immaterial part of man's being. What is important is to receive the communication that that place is a place of punishment and is not pleasant. Knit picking at minute details is of little use. Most people get the message - 'The Gehenna that Christ refers to is not where one should want to end up."
Now, why may we interpret that the Gehenna of Christ's reference is a place of neverending punsishment? Before I answer this with a new point not introduced by me at least yet, I say this: The point here is not that there can be no temporary punishment with that which is designed to punish forever.
I want to repeat that. The point in this is not that there can be no temporary punishment with that which is designed to punish forever. The point is that some will be punished forever in the Gehenna of Christ's warning.
Now, Mark 9:48 says of Gehenna, a place of unquencahble fire (v.43) - "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
The Annhilationist would believe that though the sinner has ceased to exist the fire and the sinner's worm still continue forever. If this is what Christ meant it certainly is not what He said. He could have easily set forth that concept if that is what He meant.
A non-existent person owns nothing, not even a worm. How then could an annhilated person be signified by the phrase "their worm"?. The fire was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). So it does not speak of the sinner's fire. But it does speak of the sinner's worm. And it does not die but remains to be "their worm" implying that the sinners also do not cease to exist.
It may be objected that the eternal fire of Matthew 25 is not the Gehenna of Mark 9. I ask, how much difference does it really make?
Now the communication of Christ's teaching need not call for a scientific explanation of how a worm could live forever or how a fire could burn for eternity. This is what I gather from the "their worm" not dying:
The worm feeding on the corrupted body signifies an endless corruption. In nature corruption mercifully ends in complete disintegration. Final dissolution of that substance which is being corrupted ends the process. In the earthly Gehenna this would certainly be true as that disentegration and accompanying fires are long dissapeared. But Christ contrastingly speaks of a Gehenna where the fire does not go out and the corrupting never ends, for the worms feeds perpetually forever.
"Their worm dieth not" speaks of the endless corrupting of a man in endless existence. Memory and remorse are probably the worm of which Christ is speaking. In eternal punishment the gnawing worm, ruining the sinner's inward peace and purity are probably the never ending remorse and memory over one's sins and unbelief.
If there is some kind of endless supernatural fire it apparently does not relieve the sinner from the curse of the remorse over his past. If the sinner is annhilated then the "worm" has run its course. But if the sinner experiences eternal punishment "their worm" gnaws away on them forever. The worm never dies and it continues forever to be "their worm".
Mark 9:48 establishes that Gehenna means eternal torment in corruption which knows no end. And it also means that extinguishing or non-existence brings no relief to those condemned to that place by God's greater authoruty.
No one has clearly shown me that the Lake of Fire, which is only mentioned in Revelation, is referring to Gehenna or vice versa other than by tradition.
I think it is fairly pointless to argue this. The question is whether Christ has or has not communicated to us that eternal punishment in an eternal fire awaits the lost. I think that He has. How much difference does it make if the unquenchable fire of Gehenna is another fire beside the eternal fire of another place? And as we see that men can go to one as well as the other, what difference does it make what you want to call the respective places if they are two and not one.
I believe that Christ's Gehenna and the lake of fire of John's revelation and the eternal fire of Matthew 25 are virtually if not absolutely God's punishment beyond mere physical death. The final term used in the Scripture is the lake of fire as "the second death".
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by purpledawn, posted 05-16-2006 5:37 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jaywill, posted 05-16-2006 9:54 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 262 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 7:56 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 261 of 300 (312380)
05-16-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jaywill
05-16-2006 9:35 AM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
No one has clearly shown me that the Lake of Fire, which is only mentioned in Revelation, is referring to Gehenna or vice versa other than by tradition.
I have coined this a "Red Letter Argument". And what I mean by that is that in some Bibles the direct quotes of Jesus are printed in red letters. The rest is in black print. (Usually only the synoptic gospels count).
Some skeptical types like to assume that only what is in the red letters is what Jesus taught. The surrounding comments of the evangelists, the epistles, the book of Revelation, and the general teaching of the apostles and writers of the New Testament which are in black print, are the various mistakes and blunders which ruin what is in the red letters.
Christ sent His apostles to teach all that He taught. Basically the "Red Letter Argument" is an argument that the apostles of Christ cannot be trusted to have passed on to us what Jesus taught.
Under closer examination "Red Letter Arguments" usually reveal that the skeptic doesn't even except everything in the red letters either.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jaywill, posted 05-16-2006 9:35 AM jaywill has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 262 of 300 (312719)
05-17-2006 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jaywill
05-16-2006 9:35 AM


Temporary Punishment and Worms
quote:
The point here is not that there can be no temporary punishment with that which is designed to punish forever.
I didn't say that there could. Punishment is a penalty imposed on an offender for wrongdoing. Ceasing to exist is a very permanent and unending penalty, but it isn't torment.
quote:
Now, Mark 9:48 says of Gehenna, a place of unquencahble fire (v.43) - "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
The verse concerning the worms refers back to Isaiah 66:24 which is written in a poetic style. It is a very creative way of writing, not really to be taken as literal as you seem to be.
Gehenna is the name of a very real place and carried the message that to have your body cast in that pit meant you were a criminal and were unworthy of burial or resurrection.
Again, in the Book of Mark, Jesus was speaking before his death about an imminent judgment that didn't come about, not the final judgment he showed in the vision.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jaywill, posted 05-16-2006 9:35 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by jaywill, posted 05-17-2006 9:07 AM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 263 of 300 (312745)
05-17-2006 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by purpledawn
05-17-2006 7:56 AM


Re: Temporary Punishment and Worms
The verse concerning the worms refers back to Isaiah 66:24 which is written in a poetic style. It is a very creative way of writing, not really to be taken as literal as you seem to be.
Gehenna is the name of a very real place and carried the message that to have your body cast in that pit meant you were a criminal and were unworthy of burial or resurrection.
I realize that Jesus was alluding to what was written in Isaiah. I don't think that changes anything. That it is poetic language doesn't change anything. The Holy Spirit is simply speaking poetically about damnation. Since the precise nature of it is beyond the experience of the living it is not surprising that it is spoken of in poetic terms about flame and worms. The essential message is communicated quite well. And to misunderstanding takes more laborious work than to understand it.
Incidently, I believe that the Old Testament also refers to everlasting punishment in the book of Daniel:
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach and eternal contempt." (Dan. 12:2)
Again, in the Book of Mark, Jesus was speaking before his death about an imminent judgment that didn't come about, not the final judgment he showed in the vision.
The judgment of the sheep and the goat nations follows His long discorse about His second coming in chapter 24. So how ever soon He returns to establish His reign on the earth determines how soon that judgement is to occur.
Now the judgment in Mark 9:38-50 is actually a teaching directly to His disciples. And the warning of the punishment of Gehenna is to His disciples. This, I admit, is not exactly the same as His warning of about the sheep and goat nations.
And I believe that the warning is given in Mark 9:38-50 to those for whom the question of eternal salvation is solved. This presents an interesting situation. And it is this difference that I alluded to when I gave a caveat that my explanation of Mark 9:47,48 was not meant to teach that no one could be temporarily punished by a torment that is designed to be eternal.
This teaching of Mark 9:47,48 should be companioned with Revelation 2:11 and Revelation 3:5. The three verses, in my opinion, all speak of the warning to Christians, that they could be hurt, if not eternally punished, by the Lord's discipline after His second coming.
I do not mean Purgatory. I mean that the Divine Judge has more latitude than we usually imagine to deal with a large scope of experiences. The saved disciple who warrants such severe discipline might be hurt by the second death. The saved disciple might have his name temporarily erased from the book of life. And the saved disciple might find that not overcoming certaain besetting sins might be temporarily treated as the unbeliever.
And it is at this point that my understanding of Mark 9:46,47; Rev.2:11, and Rev. 3:5 differs from the standard mainstream evangelical understanding.
Basically, in brief, just as the worldly judges have a much lattitude as to how they deal with an offense, so does the Judge of the whole earth. A worldly judge may deal with the offender stiffly, mercifully, or anywhere inbetween. He or she may assign community service as a punishment. She or he may assign time in jail. He or she may assign time with a suspended sentence.
After much careful consideration of all that the Bible says, I have decided that some verses which appear to refer to those eternally lost actually refer to those who are eternally saved yet must be dispensationally and temporarily punished for something.
And this fact does influence the Universalist some plausible, if not fully justifiable suspicion that all punishment is temporary.
Having said that let me review Mark 9:47,48 again this way. The warning is to Christ's disciples. The place is a place of eternal punishment and some will go there eternally. But during the millennial kingdom some disciples may be in need of a discipline which would involve temporarily that punishment.
Concerning His own disciples and servants Jesus said "The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
And that slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes; But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to every one to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more. (Luke 12:46-48)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 7:56 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 12:48 PM jaywill has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 264 of 300 (312837)
05-17-2006 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by jaywill
05-17-2006 9:07 AM


Just Mark
Actually the reference Jesus makes to Gehenna in Chapter 9 of Mark isn't really comparing it with anything.
Mark
9:40
"For he who is not against us is for us.
9:41
"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
9:42
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
9:43
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire.
9:45
"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna.
9:47
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna,
9:48
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Isaiah 66:24)
9:49
"For everyone will be salted with fire.
9:50
"Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
This is the only reference to Gehenna in the book of Mark and there is no reference to Hades.
Now Jesus is talking with his disciples. When he says these words, his disciples only have access to Isaiah, not Matthew, Luke, Paul's letters or the book of Revelation.
IMO, it would be like someone saying it is better to go through life maimed instead of getting thrown into Alcatraz. That statement would have more impact when said while Alcatraz was a functioning prison. Today it doesn't carry the same weight since Alcatraz is closed.
Gehenna was an actual place at the time Jesus was speaking. So if Jesus used the actual Gehenna as an illustration, then he gave no name for the event he was actually describing.
The word Gehenna doesn't have the same impact today, since it isn't a place for criminals etc. anymore.
The reference to the worms "not perishing" doesn't mean they don't die, but that maggots are always present in that place because there was always decaying carcasses or garbage.
Isaiah 66:24
And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, no will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.
Not a vision of torment, eternal or otherwise.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jaywill, posted 05-17-2006 9:07 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 05-17-2006 1:28 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 267 by jaywill, posted 05-17-2006 2:21 PM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 265 of 300 (312858)
05-17-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by purpledawn
05-17-2006 12:48 PM


Re: Just Mark
Actually the reference Jesus makes to Gehenna in Chapter 9 of Mark isn't really comparing it with anything.
First, let's consider Purpledawn's point here. Purpledawn goes on to quote in detail Mark 9:40-50. Actually, there is quite a bit of correspendence between Matthew 25:31-46 and Mark 9 specifically verses 41:
"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name that you are Christ's, truly I say to you that he shall by no means lose his reward"
Now in the passage of Matthew 25 some who clothed, visited, fed, and otherwise were kind to the least of the Lord's brothers are rewarded with going into eternal life. They have been kind to a prophet and received for their kindness a prophet's reward. Conversely, those who adopted an unfriendly and negligent attitude towards the least of the Lord's brothers go into eternal punishment.
What this means is that at the time of the second coming some nations will be alive on the earth. Some aligned themselves with Antichrist who will be a great persecutor of the Christians and Jews. And some other nations will receive the refugee Christians and Jews who are sick, ill-clothed, unable to buy or sell, imprisioned and otherwise persecuted within the realm of the Antichrist. The kind nations will be the sheep. And the unkind nations who would not help the persecuted brothers of the Lord Jesus will be punished with eternal fire.
The judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is particular, IMO. It is not the general gospel of grace being portrayed there as preached by the apostles. It is a special circumstance related to the previous events foretold in chapter 24 about the end times.
My point here is to show only that a principle at work in Matthew 25:31-46 is also at work in Mark 9:41. Because someone has helped a prophet she receives a prophet's reward, under some particular circumstances.
The rest of Christ's comments in Mark 9:38-50 are directed to keeping His disciples in an attitude of tolerance and unity. They are not to be a stumbling block to one another. And further they are not to be a stumbling block to themselves. They must deal with the motive of sin seriously. It is better that they go into the kingdom without an offending physical member like a sinning eye, a sinning hand or foot, rather than be punished in a fire of Gehenna.
I don't think that Jesus meant His disciples should literally pluck out an eye which continually gives lustful looks, or amputate a foot which wanders into sinful places, or cut off a hand which tends to steal. I do think He meant that one has to deal with such sins seriously at any cost. Otherwise instead of being rewarded when He comes he is in danger of being punished simliarly to how an unbeliever who is eternally lost would be punished.
In all this it should be remembered that it is through the Spirit that Paul said he put to death the practices of the body in Romans chapter 6. Through the grace of the Holy Spirit one can put to death besetting sins of the members of our body. Physical amputation is not what is being taught.
The place Gehenna is a place of eternal punishment. But in some cases the redeemed are warned that practical righteousness is what the Lord Jesus is looking for. And division, lack of tolerance, and besetting sinful living can be temporarily punished even to a disciple of Jesus in the coming age.
Mark 9:38-50 holds some principles seen in Matthew 25.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 12:48 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 1:38 PM jaywill has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 266 of 300 (312868)
05-17-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jaywill
05-17-2006 1:28 PM


Re: Just Mark
So much for just Mark.
quote:
The place Gehenna is a place of eternal punishment.
But not eternal torment. That is not the picture painted in Mark.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 05-17-2006 1:28 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 267 of 300 (312886)
05-17-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by purpledawn
05-17-2006 12:48 PM


Re: Just Mark
IMO, it would be like someone saying it is better to go through life maimed instead of getting thrown into Alcatraz. That statement would have more impact when said while Alcatraz was a functioning prison. Today it doesn't carry the same weight since Alcatraz is closed.
The analogy is not that bad. Except that verse 48 says the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. So many of us realize that He was not talking about the city's trash dump. He was using Gehenna to signify something everlastingly unpleasant for the individual going there. Again, the phrase "their worm" is rather personal.
Gehenna was an actual place at the time Jesus was speaking. So if Jesus used the actual Gehenna as an illustration, then he gave no name for the event he was actually describing.
Does it matter that He didn't add "And incidently, I am refering to the lake of fire which you will read about latter in the book of Revelation which hasn't yet been written. Stay tuned."
Verse 42 speaks illustratively about being thrown into the sea with a millstone around one's neck. And verse 45 speaks illustratively about Gehenna of unquenchable fire.
The word Gehenna doesn't have the same impact today, since it isn't a place for criminals etc. anymore.
The reference to the worms "not perishing" doesn't mean they don't die, but that maggots are always present in that place because there was always decaying carcasses or garbage.
In other words Purpledawn believes that in Mark 9 Jesus was warning His disciples that it was better enter into the kingdom of God (something of grand significance and eternal relevancy) than to be thrown into the city dump (something temporal and of limited relevancy).
This is like saying that in verse 42 instead of entering into the kingdom all others will have a millstone tied to their neck and drowned supposedly some nearby sea.
Christ here, is not speaking of trivialites but of things of grand and weighty significance. And one must be childlike in his reception of them as He goes on to say:
"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child shall by no means enter into it." (10:15)
Mark 9:38-50 communicates in a simple manner the contrast between His kingdom and His punishment of unquenchable fire. We should receive it in simplicity. In Gehenna your gnawing worm will not die and the fire does not go out forever. So avoid the place at any cost.
Let me ask all readers a question. Does Purpledawn's interpretation tend to cause you to take the warning more seriously or less seriously? Does it cause you to tremble and look to the grace and mercy of God to stay out of such a fate? Or does her interpretation cause you more a feeling to relax, not be too concerned, and just calmly regard the warning as a trivial historical perculiarity?
Now compare your reaction to the tone of the warning and decide which reaction is in harmony with Christ's tone.
The word Gehenna doesn't have the same impact today, since it isn't a place for criminals etc. anymore.
In other words. "Don't be too concerned with Christ's warning. Relax. Don't take it too seriously. Gehenna burning trash dump went out long ago. Stumbling one another or stumbling yourself with your sinful members is not too serious afterall."
After Purpledawn waters down the Bible for you it will have about the same impact as Grimm's fairy tales. I prefer to take it in the tone and with the significance that Jesus delivered it.
The reference to the worms "not perishing" doesn't mean they don't die, but that maggots are always present in that place because there was always decaying carcasses or garbage.
A nonexistent person owns nothing, not even a worm. The phrase "their worm" is intensely personal. It is not maggots. It is YOUR maggots.
Disentigration and dissolution are not conveyed but perpetual and personal decay and corruption.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 12:48 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 6:25 PM jaywill has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 268 of 300 (312968)
05-17-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jaywill
05-17-2006 2:21 PM


Re: Just Mark
Interesting you ask if my interpretation causes one to take warning, when you don't truly understand my interpretation.
The actual Gehenna was a very real possibility for the wicked at that time and his audience knew it. Destruction of the body in such a manner meant no place in the world to come. No resurrection. Jesus was teaching about sin, not salvation. It was a serious warning at the time.
The use of Gehenna in the book of Mark has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire and does not illustrate torment.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jaywill, posted 05-17-2006 2:21 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 05-17-2006 6:34 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 275 by jaywill, posted 05-18-2006 7:00 AM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 300 (312971)
05-17-2006 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by purpledawn
05-17-2006 6:25 PM


Re: Just Mark
The use of Gehenna in the book of Mark has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire and does not illustrate torment
You seem to be insisting on your own idiosyncratic literal reading that refuses to read parts in context of the whole and flat out denies the reading of the majority of traditional Christian churches. There's no arguing with someone who is willing to take such a position but it is hard to understand how an intelligent person gets herself so convinced of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 6:25 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 7:02 PM Faith has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 270 of 300 (312973)
05-17-2006 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
05-17-2006 6:34 PM


Re: Just Mark
Then show me how the proper name, Gehenna, deals with anything but the local dump in the book of Mark. It was the name of an existing place at the time of Jesus.
I've made no secret of the fact that I don't abide by Church tradition if there is no clear basis for it in the Bible.
If there is no basis for it in the Bible, then I feel it is important to understand the reason for the tradition.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 05-17-2006 6:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 05-17-2006 7:28 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 05-19-2006 11:02 AM purpledawn has not replied

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