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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 271 of 300 (312978)
05-17-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by purpledawn
05-17-2006 7:02 PM


Re: Just Mark
Then show me how the proper name, Gehenna, deals with anything but the local dump in the book of Mark. It was the name of an existing place at the time of Jesus.
We are all taught that it refers to the existing dump in the Valley of Hinnom and that it is being used to symbolize what is referred to in other places in the Bible as the eternal torment of the damned.
I've made no secret of the fact that I don't abide by Church tradition if there is no clear basis for it in the Bible.
Which I'm saying makes no sense to me, to trust in your own reading of the Bible and ignore the teachings of hundreds or thousands of seminary-trained pastors who have the job of exegeting such passages and don't see it your way.
If there is no basis for it in the Bible, then I feel it is important to understand the reason for the tradition.
You've rejected everything Jaywill and Buz have said, and I certainly can't do any better. The reason for the tradition is basically that traditionalists treat all the books as building on each other instead of speaking in their own insulated frame of reference as you treat them. If you already have references to eternal torment, understanding it in context as the same as eternal fire, then Gehenna is just another figure for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 7:02 PM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 272 of 300 (312981)
05-17-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by purpledawn
05-13-2006 8:27 AM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
Matthew is a bio about Jesus while he walked this earth telling everyone that the Kingdom of God is at hand. Judgment day was imminent. That judgment day didn't happen.
Simply to say that something Jesus prophesied "didn't happen" makes your views so alien I find it hard even to try to follow your arguments. Therefore I guess I shouldn't, should just leave the thread alone, but I fell for the temptation so my answer is: If it hasn't yet happened, then it is yet to happen --That's the position of faith on all biblical prophecy. However, in this case, Jesus' own coming and death and resurrection can be thought of as the beginning of the Judgment Day and those things DID happen. His life in His believers IS the Kingdom of God. It has come. He's the pivot of all history, the basis on which the final disposition of all humanity will ultimately be determined.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2006 8:27 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2006 11:43 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 277 by purpledawn, posted 05-18-2006 5:53 PM Faith has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 300 (313019)
05-17-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
05-17-2006 7:54 PM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
some good points here Faith and I might add that we have a remarkable track record on those prophesies which have been fulfilled, though that is not the topic here for documentation. LOL on any interest or admissions of this by our secularist friends, however.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 05-17-2006 7:54 PM Faith has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 300 (313020)
05-17-2006 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by purpledawn
05-16-2006 5:37 AM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
PD writes:
I can't rethink my conclusions if I'm not given anything to think about.
Well if nothing any of us have said in these ten pages to give you anything to think about on this debate, all I can say is I'm not wasting anymore of my time trying. Your mind is set on this, regardless of what is said.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 275 of 300 (313113)
05-18-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by purpledawn
05-17-2006 6:25 PM


Re: Just Mark
The actual Gehenna was a very real possibility for the wicked at that time and his audience knew it. Destruction of the body in such a manner meant no place in the world to come. No resurrection. Jesus was teaching about sin, not salvation. It was a serious warning at the time.
The use of Gehenna in the book of Mark has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire and does not illustrate torment.
So purpledawn holds that it was indeed a serious warning to the first century disciples of Christ but much less so today. Gehenna has long been extinguished like a dormant volcano and we need not be concerned today, according to Purpledawn.
I don't think this is reliable either. Christ refered to Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 66. But that prophecy clearly is a prediction of a future age:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I make, remain before Me, declares Jehovah, so will your seed and your name remain.
And from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh will come to bow down before Me, says Jehovah.
And they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; And they shall be abhorence to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:22-24)
Christ refered Isaiah's prophecy of a grand Messianic era in which natural world too will be effected by God's creative acts. If Jesus used words from this prophecy it is logical to assume that He was warning them about the culmination of God's work at the end of history as we know it.
Far off into the future at the end of God's work world wide the Gehenna of unquenchable fire was a place to avoid at any cost. Similiarly in Daniel we have this:
" ... and at that time your people, every one found written in the book, will be delivered.
And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt. (Dan,1c-2)
So the teaching's relation to the lake of fire in Revelation is more likely rather than less.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 6:25 PM purpledawn has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 276 of 300 (313254)
05-18-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


quote:
If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living".
Life in the passage means something different than just living. It is talking about a fulfilling abundant glorious state in heaven. It is not talking about just existing.
So eternal damnation exists. If you don't accept Christ as your personal lord and savior you goto hell. Period. Thats the way it is. End of story. Amen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 277 of 300 (313279)
05-18-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
05-17-2006 7:54 PM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
quote:
Simply to say that something Jesus prophesied "didn't happen" makes your views so alien I find it hard even to try to follow your arguments.
Oddly enough the postponement of the judgment is left over from when I listened to seminary-trained pastors.
The churches I have been a part of taught that the judgment was postponed due to the unbelief of the majority of the Jews. I think it is alluded to in one of Paul's letters. I haven't had the time to look yet. But that is supposedly why Paul is gathering the Gentiles. They are to make the Jews jealous who would in turn believe and then the judgment would come about.
I'm not saying it didn't happen because Jesus was wrong, I'm saying it didn't happen becuase God showed mercy on his people.
Obviously I didn't go to a fundamentalist church.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 05-17-2006 7:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 05-18-2006 11:03 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 278 of 300 (313282)
05-18-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Christian7
05-18-2006 4:38 PM


Eternal Damnation
quote:
Life in the passage means something different than just living. It is talking about a fulfilling abundant glorious state in heaven. It is not talking about just existing.
Where is that explained in the Bible? So what is being tormented?
quote:
So eternal damnation exists. If you don't accept Christ as your personal lord and savior you goto hell. Period. Thats the way it is. End of story.
Unfortunately the wrong story.
I didn't say that unending damnation didn't exist. I stated that unending torment isn't what Gehenna describes.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Christian7, posted 05-18-2006 4:38 PM Christian7 has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 279 of 300 (313382)
05-18-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by purpledawn
05-18-2006 5:53 PM


Re: Matthew and Revelation
Well I guess this is wandering off topic but it's hard not to answer:
Simply to say that something Jesus prophesied "didn't happen" makes your views so alien I find it hard even to try to follow your arguments.
Oddly enough the postponement of the judgment is left over from when I listened to seminary-trained pastors. The churches I have been a part of taught that the judgment was postponed due to the unbelief of the majority of the Jews.
Interesting. Apparently different seminaries than I had in mind.
What denominations were these, if you don't mind saying? Apparently you found their views convincing.
I think it is alluded to in one of Paul's letters. I haven't had the time to look yet. But that is supposedly why Paul is gathering the Gentiles. They are to make the Jews jealous who would in turn believe and then the judgment would come about.
According to the churches I've been a part of, or at least the ones that made most sense to me, the Gentiles were in God's plan from the beginning, all the way back in Eden when the sending of a Savior was first hinted at. When Jesus says He has other sheep (John 10:16) He is talking about the Gentiles, and implying at the same time that they were chosen from before the foundation of the world, since He speaks of them as already of His flock in the present tense.
I'm not saying it didn't happen because Jesus was wrong, I'm saying it didn't happen becuase God showed mercy on his people.
Yes, you are talking about Romans 9 through 11, which is the very touching passage where Paul, in a state of grief for his brethren according to the flesh, spells out God's plans for the Gentiles requiring the rejection of the Jews until some future time. But you have a completely different view of God's work than I do -- you think God can change His mind, or that human circumstances cause Him to change plans, whereas I believe that God planned everything at the beginning down to every last comma and period. There is no such thing as a prophecy given by God's people that doesn't come true. And Jesus, being God Himself, could not have been prophesying something that didn't come true. It has to mean something other than you read it to mean.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by purpledawn, posted 05-18-2006 5:53 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by purpledawn, posted 05-19-2006 7:25 AM Faith has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 280 of 300 (313453)
05-19-2006 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
05-18-2006 11:03 PM


Seminary Trained
Slightly off topic, but not bad if we or others don't pursue it.
quote:
What denominations were these, if you don't mind saying?
I grew up in a very small Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and whenever I relocate, I've stayed with that group. Sometimes the church is large, sometimes not.
quote:
Apparently you found their views convincing.
I grew up in the church, there wasn't any need for convincing. Their view was all I was taught. So it lingers in my brain.
As an adult I delved deeper into serious Bible Study and found seminary trained pastors tend to contradict themsleves and that the Bible wasn't always supporting what they said.
Looking at Gehenna as it was probably intended for the original audience, doesn't negate or lessen any final judgment.
quote:
But you have a completely different view of God's work than I do -- you think God can change His mind, or that human circumstances cause Him to change plans,
Yes I do. Of course, I don't read the comments concerning Gehenna in the book of Mark as a prophecy. IMO, this sentence sums up the point of the narrative: Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.
quote:
It has to mean something other than you read it to mean.
Hence the reason for this discussion.
In Mark what did Jesus really mean when he spoke to his disciples concerning Gehenna or was Gehenna even the point?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 05-18-2006 11:03 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2006 10:19 AM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 281 of 300 (313490)
05-19-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by purpledawn
05-19-2006 7:25 AM


Re: Seminary Trained
Yes I do. Of course, I don't read the comments concerning Gehenna in the book of Mark as a prophecy. IMO, this sentence sums up the point of the narrative: Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.
You have created a false dichotomy. You are saying the teaching has to be only a prophecy or only a teaching about some immediate behavioral situation.
Of course Christ could utter something prophetic about the future with a lesson in it applicable to their immediate daily life.
If you want to say that you're more impressed with how Jesus is teaching His disciples to be at peace with one another, that's fine. I fully agree. I see no reason to use the teaching to deny future accountability which is the force that makes the immediate application have impact.
Basically, perhaps all of this thread is just an ex Disciples of Christ church kid saying "I'm tired of being threatened." I sympathize with you some.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by purpledawn, posted 05-19-2006 7:25 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by purpledawn, posted 05-19-2006 12:22 PM jaywill has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 282 of 300 (313504)
05-19-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by purpledawn
05-17-2006 7:02 PM


Re: Just Mark
To answer both this post and your question in Message 280
quote:
In Mark what did Jesus really mean when he spoke to his disciples concerning Gehenna or was Gehenna even the point?
This is from the Jamieson, Fausett and Brown commentary at Blue Letter Bible. Apparently the imagery refers back to Isaiah and has a tradition among the Jews about eternal punishment.
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched--See on JF & B for Mt 5:30; The "unquenchablesness" of this fire has already been brought before us (see on JF & B for Mt 3:12); and the awfully vivid idea of an undying worm, everlastingly consuming an unconsumable body, is taken from the closing words of the evangelical prophet ( Isa 66:24 ), which seem to have furnished the later Jewish Church with its current phraseology on the subject of future punishment (see LIGHTFOOT).
In the discussion there was a reference on hell to Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:22:
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca! shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool! shall be in danger of hell-fire--It is unreasonable to deny, as ALEXANDER does, that three degrees of punishment are here meant to be expressed, and to say that it is but a threefold expression of one and the same thing. But Romish expositors greatly err in taking the first two--"the judgment" and "the council"--to refer to degrees of temporal punishment with which lesser sins were to be visited under the Gospel, and only the last--"hell-fire"--to refer to the future life. All three clearly refer to divine retribution, and that alone, for breaches of this commandment; though this is expressed by an allusion to Jewish tribunals. The "judgment," as already explained, was the lowest of these; the "council," or "Sanhedrim,"which sat at Jerusalem--was the highest; while the word used for "hell-fire" contains an allusion to the "valley of the son of Hinnom" ( Jos 18:16 ). In this valley the Jews, when steeped in idolatry, went the length of burning their children to Molech "on the high places of Tophet"--in consequence of which good Josiah defiled it, to prevent the repetition of such abominations ( 2Ki 23:10 ); and from that time forward, if we may believe the Jewish writers, a fire was kept burning in it to consume the carrion and all kinds of impurities that collected about the capital. Certain it is, that while the final punishment of the wicked is described in the Old Testament by allusions to this valley of Tophet or Hinnom ( Isa 30:33 66:24 ), our Lord Himself describes the same by merely quoting these terrific descriptions of the evangelical prophet ( Mar 9:43-48 ).
The terms in the passage, "unquenchable" and "everlasting" certainly sound like eternal torment to me.
There was also a reference to their commentary on Matthew 3:12. 3:10 is also relevant:
On Matt 3:10
The "fire," which in another verse is called "unquenchable," can be no other than that future "torment" of the impenitent whose "smoke ascendeth up for ever and ever," and which by the Judge Himself is styled "everlasting punishment" ( Mat 25:46 ). What a strength, too, of just indignation is in that word "cast" or "flung into the fire!"
On Matt 3:12:
but he will burn up the chaff--empty, worthless professors of religion, void of all solid religious principle and character (see Psa 1:4 ).
with unquenchable fire--Singular is the strength of this apparent contradiction of figures:--to be burnt up, but with a fire that is unquenchable; the one expressing the utter destruction of all that constitutes one's true life, the other the continued consciousness of existence in that awful condition.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : various small corrections + addition of last quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by purpledawn, posted 05-17-2006 7:02 PM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 283 of 300 (313526)
05-19-2006 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by jaywill
05-19-2006 10:19 AM


Address the Real Position
quote:
You have created a false dichotomy. You are saying the teaching has to be only a prophecy or only a teaching about some immediate behavioral situation.
Why do you persist in changing what I say I do or feel into an assertion? I didn't say the teaching had to be anything. I said I don't read it that way. IOW, I don't understand it as a prophecy the way it is written.
Please stop changing what I say.
quote:
I see no reason to use the teaching to deny future accountability which is the force that makes the immediate application have impact.
You really don't have any clue what I'm talking about. Again, my argument concerning Gehenna doesn't negate any future accountability.
quote:
Basically, perhaps all of this thread is just an ex Disciples of Christ church kid saying "I'm tired of being threatened." I sympathize with you some.
Wrong again. Please keep to addressing the position and not characterizing me.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2006 10:19 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by jaywill, posted 05-20-2006 11:32 AM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 284 of 300 (313546)
05-19-2006 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


Different meanings of "life" and "death"
I know it's very late in the thread for this but I decided to try to read through some of it and think about it further. I didn't at first connect with the thread because your dismissing a metaphor such as Gehenna in such literal terms as you did in the OP just seemed beyond my answering, and as the thread progressed it seemed it was becoming a semantic battle that I don't have much patience for. But I guess I can register a few responses even at this late date.
If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living". IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.
Therefore the punishment is death by destruction in the Lake of Fire, which is eternal in the sense that it is a permanent judgment. No resurrection for this person.
Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.
The fact that there is a "worm that does not die" and a "fire that is not quenched" suggests that there is an eternal state that is capable of suffering these endless experiences. Scripture sometimes refers to it as death but it would be a mistake to think that means the cessation of consciousness in light of these images of endless experience. Otherwise there is no point to them. I think you are getting bogged down in the term "life" but as Paul says, all of us are "dead in sins" until regenerated in Christ, although sinners are apparently alive in our usual way of speaking. In other words, there is a "death" that is "everlasting" -- experienced for eternity -- just as there is an everlasting life.
I think others have said pretty much the same thing on this thread but I don't recall your response to it, so I'm sorry if I'm just repeating an old point.
Edit: I myself said it in Message 189 and you didn't answer it.
To reiterate and emphasize, where you say "If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living". IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life," you are missing the point that there are different kinds of life and death in scripture, and while the person experiencing eternal torment is able to experience it, which seems like that is being alive, in scriptural terms that is not the case. Life is only what Jesus imparts, and we're all dead in scriptural terms until Jesus imparts it.*
Edit: Had to add that resurrection is not identical to life as you imply when you say the judgment of the Lake of Fire implies cessation: "No resurrection for this person."
ALL human beings will be resurrected without exception:
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
(my bold)
In fact, that passage in Daniel pretty much establishes the picture of an everlasting state of torment, doesn't it? **
There are also better and worse resurrections, as implied by:
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
(my bold)
* I'm accumulating quite a string of edit notices, but oh well, here comes another. Wanted to add this bit of orthodox theology about the life vs death discussion: The life, the abundant life, that Jesus imparts, is the restoration of the life that was lost by Adam and Eve through their original sin, which plunged us all under the curse of the Fall. Jesus came to restore that life by paying for the sin that caused --and causes-- it to be lost.
This is another indicator -- besides Paul's statements that sinners are "dead in sins" and that Jesus "quickens" believers -- that death came instantaneously to Adam and Eve, and it's not merely the literal death of the body, and that the state of humanity ever since is a state of death -- what is usually called spiritual death. Yet humanity retained consciousness, retained intellect and feeling, retained great powers as a matter of fact -- as far as we can tell anyway (compared to what will ultimately be restored I suspect it's pretty weak stuff).
And from this it is also deduceable that when scripture speaks of the second death no loss of consciousness is implied. Death never did mean loss of consciousness, as we are all immortal souls and even physical death does not extinguish consciousness.
** Anticipating some alternate readings of Daniel 12:2, I wanted to provide this commentary by David Guzik at Blue Letter Bible.org that expresses how it is traditionally read:
B. (2-3) The resolution of resurrection
1. Many have sought to explain this resurrection as a national resurrection for Israel; but the most plain meaning refers it to the resurrection of the body
2. The Bible clearly teaches two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the damned (John 5:29; Revelation 20:4-6; 11-15)
3. But are only many resurrected?
a. There is evidence that the Hebrew word for many in verse 2 can also be used for "all"; "The emphasis is not upon many as opposed to all, but rather on the numbers involved." (Baldwin)
b. As well, the Bible acknowledges that all are raised, but not all at the same time
4. Everlasting contempt - the terror of hell never ends; there is not blissful anhilation after some punishment
Edited by Faith, : fix quote box
Edited by Faith, : added section from "edit" on down
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : better organization paragraph
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by purpledawn, posted 05-20-2006 3:20 PM Faith has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 285 of 300 (313884)
05-20-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by purpledawn
05-19-2006 12:22 PM


Re: Address the Real Position
Why do you persist in changing what I say I do or feel into an assertion? I didn't say the teaching had to be anything. I said I don't read it that way. IOW, I don't understand it as a prophecy the way it is written.
Please stop changing what I say.
Huh, Am I really doing that? Sorry.
Anyway I think we've both made our positions clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by purpledawn, posted 05-19-2006 12:22 PM purpledawn has not replied

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