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Author Topic:   NEPHILIM mYsteries
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 78 of 134 (313247)
05-18-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by arachnophilia
05-08-2006 10:11 PM


Re: rephaim???
Arachnophilia writes:

biblical

Classical Hebrew is Biblical Hebrew. They teach it at several colleges and many, many seminaries (Though some that I know that took it seem to have not used it and rememebr less than they did)

I bought a Old Testament hebrew flashcard set, so I hope I will learn at least a little of it in the summer.

on the Rephaim: THey could be Giants and a race of people. It is cool to study.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 79 of 134 (313251)
05-18-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by simple
05-12-2006 3:44 AM


Hey Whisper :)

There are some that think the Nephilim where angels or a race of demi-gods, though I dont believe either idea. I hold that they where angel/human giants, though others have their ideas.

I believe some of the anicents believed that the nephilim where angels (Nephilim: Fallen ones. "Fallen" angels?) though the interpretation that they where supernatural giants descended from angels and mortal women is the better view (and probably the oldest interpretation as well)

neat idea though.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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 Message 77 by simple, posted 05-12-2006 3:44 AM simple has responded

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 80 of 134 (313255)
05-18-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Hyroglyphx
05-09-2006 9:35 AM


good links
Hey Juggy. Thanks for the links :)

I didnt see anything that showed the "Hobbits" where humo sapiens like you and me, Though they might just be modern humans. their anatomy seems to show them as a new species of human (like Neanderthals and the Heidelbergs)a descendant of Homo Erectus, though I still consider them human, a human in ways unlike us (DNA, bone atatomy, etc) but still a human, and in a Biblical term, Created in the image of God. DNA should enlighten us about their humanity.

It would be great if they where still around.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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 Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-09-2006 9:35 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 81 of 134 (313256)
05-18-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Wounded King
05-09-2006 10:22 AM


Answersingenesis makes the claim that the Flores Hobbits where fully human. If y'all want, i shalt post a link.

Kind of odd: Paleoanthropology has proven that "hobbits" and even "Giants" (Heidelberg man) exist. JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis would be amazed.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Wounded King, posted 05-09-2006 10:22 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 83 of 134 (313301)
05-18-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by CK
05-18-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Answers in genesis
CK: CharlesKnight??

Anyway: I dont agree with a lot of what AIG says (They call old earthers like myself Bible compromisers)but they do have a few good articles. Me and Arach agreed that it shouldn't be used in arguments here (as you said, it wouldn't be taken seriously), but I brought it up when the idea that the "Hobbits" where modern humans (they have a big article on it, last time I checked.)

I was just trying to show where Juggy might be getting some info.

Interesting: Although AIG oftens talks about dinosaurs with Noah, evidence for the flood and a 6,000 year old earth, dragons and other interesting facts, I have rarely seen something about Giants on the AIG website. There is an article on the Nephilim, but not much more.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 91 of 134 (313464)
05-19-2006 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by DrJones*
05-18-2006 7:30 PM


"giants"?
Hello Dr Jones :)

Heidelbergs are "Giants" in the sense that they are far taller than other fossil humans. Neanderthals, most populations of homo Erectus, and other hominids where far shorter than the Heidelbergensis. This is why they are nicknamed "Goliaths" (see wikipedia article on Homo Heidelbergensis)So in that sense, they are "giants". Compared to us, tey are of average height (though far, far stronger than a 6 foot 200 lbs modern human), but when compared to Neanderthals (5 feet 5 inches) and other fossil humans, they are very tall.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 93 of 134 (313851)
05-20-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by DrJones*
05-19-2006 4:25 PM


hmm. cool.
Thanks for the info Dr Jones. I guess you learn something new every day :)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 95 of 134 (314208)
05-21-2006 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by arachnophilia
05-21-2006 6:52 AM


good question
hey arach :)

Arachnophilia writes:

Do you think these claims where subject to exaggeration?

Good question. Often things of great size are believed at first to be far larger/heavier/taller than they really are. Grizzlies for example when seen at first from a distance are thought at first to weigh over 1000 lbs at times. The bears are then discovered to have weighed maybe 800 lbs or so. There is a saying that the a Bear a long distance from a scale often weighs the most.

The Rephaim giants (specifically the anakites) are exaggerated in Numbers 13:33 (we looked like grasshoppers to 'em!)and it wouldn't take much size to be considered a "giant" in those days (average hebrew height was around 5'3-5'7) A race of people as tall and a large as a football lineman (6 feet 4 inch, 305 lbs) would seem quite gigantic to the tiny hebrews.

On Goliath, the septuagint, dead sea scrolls and Josephus do render Goliath as "4 cubits and a span" or around 6 and a half feet tall. But then again what cubit where they using? Royal cubit (20.4 inches long) common cubit (17.5 inches long) the cubit of New Testament times (I think it is also called the greek or roman cubit, around 21.6 inches long)? if the royal or Greco/roman cubit, Goliath would be over or around 7 feet tall. Still far shorter than the Masoretic text rendering, but still quite tall.

I dont think the Bible's original autographs exaggerated Goliath's height, though whether it rendered 9 feet or 6 '6 feet is up in question. Either way he was a big sun-of-a-gun who not even the giant saul wanted to mess with. Only a little teenager with a slingshot (effective weapon) took 'em on, and nailed that sucker right in the forehead LOL.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by arachnophilia, posted 05-21-2006 6:52 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ReverendDG, posted 05-22-2006 1:11 AM LudoRephaim has responded
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 98 of 134 (314705)
05-23-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ReverendDG
05-22-2006 1:11 AM


Re: good question
Hey ReverendDG :)

ReverendDG writes:

I'm not sure they where talking about height though,

They where talking about size, height and physical strength. In a sense, they where saying that they wouldn't be a mouthful to the anakites.

Now they could have exxagerated Goliath's height to make the story more powerful, but as a believer I cant see God writing that kind of embellishment (kind of an untruth). Later writers could have though.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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 Message 96 by ReverendDG, posted 05-22-2006 1:11 AM ReverendDG has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ReverendDG, posted 05-24-2006 1:20 AM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 99 of 134 (314706)
05-23-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by arachnophilia
05-22-2006 1:05 PM


Re: good question
Arachnophilia writes:

If the original claim was 6'6, that's well within the realm of reality.

9'9 is possible too. Someone having a growth disorder on par with the likes of Robert Wadlow (8'11) could reach it (though he might not have been a champion like Goliath was). And nature has shown amazing size change in species, such as bears (raccon sized Ursavus Elemensis to Clysdale-sized Giant Short Faced Bear) though the time needed to have such a size change might be limited, or maybe not...


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 05-22-2006 1:05 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 102 of 134 (314944)
05-24-2006 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ReverendDG
05-24-2006 1:20 AM


ReverendDG writes:

Considering that Nephilim doesn't mean giant in hebrew

The greek word Hechatonchires means "hundred handed", not "giant" yet they where a race of giants in Greek mythology. Just because Nephilim doesn't mean "giant" doesn't mean that they where not.

ReverendDG writes:

Heroes or great men, but not giants

Actually all three. In post 24 I wrote down several Bible Verses that mention their great height (Deut 2:10-11, 20-21) and the fact that they (anakites, descendats of Nephilim) where quite feared (Deut 9:1-2, 1:28)Combine this with Numbers 13:33, and their identification as "Rephaims" which seems to be the people that the mighty King Og comes from (see Deuteronomy 2:10-11, 20-11 and 3:11)then it seems quite likely that the "grasshoppers" metaphor describes a huge size difference. Though the Jews at this time where quite tiny...

BTW: I have that wiki article saved on my computer. It kicks butt!! Thanks for posting it :)

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 103 of 134 (314950)
05-24-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by arachnophilia
05-24-2006 1:54 AM


King saul
Arachnophilia writes:

6'6 is far more likely,

Actually, considering that King Saul was in that height range and yet was needing a new clean pair of underwear when he saw 'em, I think that, given the Septuagint, dead sea scrolls, and the multiple cubits, around 7 feet tall is far more likely. Though if Goliath was more rubust in build than saul and yet around the same height, then the same effect would probably happen. I'm 6 feet tall and over 200 pounds, yet the professional wrestler Mark Henry ("The world's strongest man") is only one inch taller than i am, yet weighs 380 lbs. Goliath might have been as such to Saul, though given the text emphasises on Goliath's height compared to how it talked about sauls And how it makes Goliath seem invincible, it might be more likely that Goliath was far taller and more robust than Saul.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by arachnophilia, posted 05-24-2006 1:54 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by arachnophilia, posted 05-25-2006 4:16 AM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 105 of 134 (315190)
05-25-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by arachnophilia
05-25-2006 4:16 AM


Big Saul
Arachnophilia writes:

im sorry, where is that given?

in Message 35 I quoted a source that showed it, and showed in messages 34-35 that 5'3 to 5'7 was the average height of the hebrews during the time of Saul, not the limit. There where bound to be jews at that time that where far taller than 5'7, probably in the 6-foot range. Let alone if any at that time had a growth disorder (possibly around 7 feet tall). Saul is shown as "head and shoulders" taller than any of the Jews (the verse you quoted shows that)So Saul was in the 6'6 height range, maybe in the 7-foot range.

Arachnophilia writes:

Presuming that's what this verse means, and the estimates are valid

1st Samuel 9:2 shows that Saul was taller than other jews as well as more handsome, kind of like an old Testament giant brad pitt. And during those times ancient peoples had high value for stature and handsomeness in their kings (The Ivp Bible Background commentary: Old Testament, page 293)There is no way to read a ultra-figuro-read-between-the-lines interpretation into the text.

See also 1 Samuel 10:23-24, where it also says Saul was taller than any of the people from the shoulders up, and Samuel himself saying that among the people (Jews) there was none like him. To the Jews, Saul was a Giant.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by arachnophilia, posted 05-25-2006 4:16 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 120 of 134 (323529)
06-19-2006 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by John Williams
05-31-2006 3:23 AM


good post
hey John Williams :)

Youre two posts are quite interesting, but There is so much on them that I cant respond to all that you wrote. But kudos on them. Good job!

John Williams writes:

The average stature of the ancient israelites has been reliably estimated at aroung 5'5 for men and 5' for women.

This this estimate for the time of Saul and David, or just the average height over the span of Old Testament Hebrew history? Either way it seems to agree more or less with the sources I quoted. Could you direct me to yoursource? I'm not being sarcastic or smug like many who ask that question on evc, I just want to look at it.

BTW: Glad you mentioned those WWE Wrestlers. THe Great Khali kicks BUTT!!


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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 Message 117 by John Williams, posted 05-31-2006 3:23 AM John Williams has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 121 of 134 (323534)
06-19-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by John Williams
05-31-2006 3:23 AM


Goliath cubit
John Williams writes:

Since Goliath was two meters tall, or about 6 feet 7 (according to DDS)

That depends on what cubit was being used.

common cubit: 18 inch
"New Testment cubit" (poss. Greco-Roman cubit): 21.6 inch
Royal cubit: 20 inch or so.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by John Williams, posted 05-31-2006 3:23 AM John Williams has responded

Replies to this message:
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