Why Atheists don't believe

So when I write out my testimony, like I did in this thread, do you believe that I am experiencing what I say?I mean this is not a fair comparason, since you know your wife, and generally speaking you trust her, and believe what she says, you have no reason to doubt her. So it is evidence when she tells you something. In the court room of your head she is a viable witness.

Yes but she is saying things that be checked and are not out of the realms of the possible. You, by the very nature of your faith, are asking us to believe things that are untestable, unseeable and impossible to check upon.Moreover, those are not equal things - your example is closer to Kong's other statement.

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If she came home and said she had had tea with the queen, I wouldn't accept it first hand for example, since this seems quite unreasonable.

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Except in your case - it's "I had dinner with the queen on the moon and then Elvis gave me a ride home in his rocket ship".It's a matter of degree and plausibility.

I didn't ask him if he would believe in God based on what I say. I asked him if he believes that I am experiencing what I think I am.Different.

Yes you are asking to believe in God by extension of your own experience.

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I didn't ask him if he would believe in God based on what I say. I asked him if he believes that I am experiencing what I think I am.

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isdifferent from

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I didn't ask him if he would believe in God based on what I say. I asked him if he believes that I believe that I am experiencing what I think I am.

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The first most atheists will say "no", the second most atheists will say "sure if makes you happy, whatever".Edited by CK, : Typo - Atheist.Edited by CK, : No reason given.

Absolutely. Unless for some reason the person testifying to something like this is a pathological liar (which you have given no reason to "believe" is the case with you personally), no one should doubt that you experienced something. Unlike some of my colleagues, I don't think this type of experience is "delusional", etc. I have heard enough testimonies to fully understand that the experience is "real" from the standpoint of the person experiencing it. However, and here's the rub, it is invariably an entirely subjective, internal event. An event, moreover, that is interpreted through your particular cultural idiom. A third person observing this moment (or moments) would not have witnessed anything at all. In other words, the conversion event had no extrinsic, external reality for anyone other than you. Doesn't imply it didn't occur - for you - only that such an experience can't be used for evidence of an external reality. One thing that I feel bolsters this argument is the fact that, whereas most testimonies I've heard/read have similarities, no two testimonies are identical in the details. Moreover, the similarities appear to be traceable to cultural context. Moslems don't appear to have the same conversion experiences as Christians (from my admitted very limited sampling).To bring this back to the topic of the OP, I think in many ways it comes down to how we individually evaluate truth claims. At least as it relates to the supernatural/divine, as is apparent from the responses you've received on this thread (again, assuming everyone is being reasonably honest). Atheists appear to have a higher standard of required evidence on this particular topic. In my opinion, this standard derives from where we set the bar. As an example, I would argue that there are two basic types of claim: big "C" and little "c". The evidence for the former must needs be more compelling than evidence for the latter. Permit me to give an example to illustrate my point:Suppose I were to say to you, "Hi. My name's Quetzal. I live at the equator. Today the temperature is hot, but we're experiencing torrential rain." Most of us would prbably take this at face value (unless there was some reason to doubt Q's veracity). We would likely accept the claim, in spite of the fact that there are actually three truth claims in the statement: name, location, current weather. Obviously, if we desired, we could test all or some of them (check the IP for location, or global weather charts for that aspect, etc). Most of us wouldn't bother. We're willing to take the claim "on faith". It is a small "c" claim, and the standard of evidence required to accept it is low (all other things being equal).On the other hand, suppose I said, "Hi. My name's Quetzal. Last night an alien spacecraft landed in my back yard. The aliens kidnapped me, took me in the blink of an eye to Phobos, performed bizarre medical experiments on me which I don't really remember very well, and then returned me to my bed where I woke up. Oh, and they spray-painted my dog purple." I think most of us from either side of the EvC fence would take an a priori skeptical view of this account. We would be quite justified in asking for additional corroborative evidence to support the claim before we accepted it. This is a big "C" claim: something so totally beyond our own experience, or for that matter beyond what has been empirically verified in other cases (or has even been disconfirmed), that we can reasonably conclude (in the absence of the supporting evidence), that the claim is questionable. Not, I hasten to add, that it is necessarily either false, or that the individual didn't experience something. However, most of us would evaluate the claim as being unlikely in the absence of confirming evidence. And I think the evidence presented would need to be pretty damn compelling.Let me bring out another aspect of this evaluation process, which all of us use more or less rigorously on a daily basis. Suppose I add to the end of the first (little "c") claim the following: "I hate rain. It makes me sad and miserable." How do we empirically evaluate this statement? The three critical elements of the statement - "hate", "sad", "miserable" - are utterly subjective, ambiguous, and internal to the individual. How can a third party possibly know exactly what the person means by "sad", for instance? We can (and do) make a generalization from what we mean by the term, but that doesn't necessarily correlate to what the person speaking means by it. We simply cannot objectively evaluate the internal emotional claim made. It's not possible. Therefore, claims about internal, subjective experience are neither big "C" nor little "c" claims. They are, by definition, invulnerable.Bringing this back around to the question which you asked: Yes, I completely believe you experienced what you testified to. I have no reason to doubt you. In any case, it is an invulnerable claim that would be impossible to evaluate one way or the other. On the other hand, I feel I am justified in questioning the conclusion you reached based on that experience. You are, in fact, making a big "C" claim when you attribute the experience to a deity - the claim being related to the existence of such an entity. If there is any commonality among atheists, it probably boils down to that one claim. A claim we evaluate as being highly unlikely in the absence of any confirmatory evidence.

Yes on commonplace subjects. Like I said, if she says she had tea with the queen, I would be very sceptic. If she claimed to have met Jesus or the invisible pink unicorn, she would have to do a lot of work to convince me, like taking me to shake his hand, or her hoof. Yes, I have no reason to believe you are a liar. I do not however believe that your experience is caused by anything "supernatural", an extaordinary claim like that needs extraordinary support.Edited by kongstad, : Added a point

Dude, please don't tell me what I meant to say. There was no difference between the 2 quotes from me.I am asking him, about my belief, not about God.In other words.I believe in God, do you believe me?

Well yes? but that's not what you asked. You asked if we believed you has an experience.I believe you think it's real - I don't have any evidence it's real and my own experience tells me that it's likely false but if it makes you happy - so what?

This post is long, so grab a beer and enjoy the read Agreed, at least until one of us sees a bonafied miracle, where there is no chance of subjectivity.I have heard of one from a good friend, but I have yet to see the paper work on it. Yes, I understand your point, but there are instances where I have seen the whole room filled with people, and the spirit started moving, and everyone was on the floor, even by-standers who weren't even paying attention to what was going on. Then a whole bunch of people were converted at the same time.I have witnessed, and been a part of some other unexplainable stuff, that I have gone over in this forum before. Possibly because no 2 people are alike. I know little about it. When I ask my leaders about it, they say that it is an imitation from the devil. I am not usually happy with that answer, because I can't prove it. Yes, I thought that way too.Good point about the little "c" and big "C". I understand that what is not all that important, you can believe by faith that it is true, but if you had to bet money on it, you know that even the little "c" you would need evidence for.This seems to be a general way of thinking for atheists, that was the claim I made in another thread, that atheists really don't believe anything, and that is what spawned this thread. Well, it is not impossible to evaluate, if you knew me. There was a change that took place. People around me noticed a even a physical change. Everyone said I looked ten years younger, except for one guy, who said I wasn't me, but I was my son. (I'm my own grandpa?)You can ask me any questions about it you wish, I am more than happy to answer.It is way to much to go over in this thread perhaps, but let me ask you, just how much subjective evidence towards one thing does it take to start to become objective? Maybe never, but if you started to factor odds in, the odds would be very slim, that it wasn't God.Also, if I say "I love you" that statement is subjective, but is it only subjective to you, or is it subjective to me also? I mean I know what I feel, so to me it's objective.Which brings me to this. If I told you 2+2=4, you would know that it is true. Knowing something is true, is a feeling. I guess if we ponder it enough, there is the possibility that 2+2 does not =4, but the feeling of truth is still there. Well times that feeling of truth you had about that statement by a factor of 1000, and you start to get the idea of the feeling I had. It was then I instantly understood what is meant when they refer to the Holy Spirit as the spirit of truth.Like John said, when you know the truth, it will set you free. And it did.There was other feelings involved too.I felt the gifts of the Holy Spirit in me, and instantly I was wiser, and more sensitive to my surroundings, and peoples spirits. I instantly wanted to forgive everyone that ever hurt me, because I knew it didn't matter anymore, God would take care of it. (I only have a handful of people that I needed to forgive, because by nature I am a forgiving person)I just found a letter that I wrote about an experience I had shortly after, I will let you guys read it. I wrote it over 2 years ago, just around Easter.

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To fully explain what it was like, I might have to preach a little to ya.
I don't know what your religious beliefs are, or how much you know about God. I will try to simplify it as best I can, because it was more than just a feeling.

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I won't write the scriptures in here, you can go here to read it:
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
I was taught to refer to scriptures when I can, so that you know I'm not just talking out of my butt. There is a form on that web page, just put the scripture # in, and you can read.

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I have been practicing with the band for 3 weeks. I don't really know the songs so I have to learn them on the spot.
The thing is, on Sunday, the band leader prays, and sometimes adds songs to the list, that I don't know.

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I was also asked to perform a song on Good Friday. It had to be about the death of Jesus. I really don't know too many religious songs, so with the help of others we picked out the Old Rugged Cross, which is a church hymn written 1913.

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Well let me tell you that this kind of music is not my style at all. But in these verses it speaks using your gifts for God:
Romans 12
1 Corinthians 12:4 , 14:12
So I figure that even though I don't like the song, I will use my gifts to praise God.

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Good Friday was a Tenebre service. It is very dramatic. There are several performances. With each successive performs, a light and a set of candles go out, until the whole church is in complete darkness, and then you leave without talking until you get to your car. (weird right?)

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I was only supposed to do that quick song, but when I was doing the sound check for the keys, people started arriving. So I started playing prophetic music (music that just comes to you like improvising, but you do it in the name of God) When the director of the whole event heard this, she said keep playing it for the people to walk in. Then she grabbed a program and started highlighting about 12 parts and said for me to play prophetically basically through the whole thing.
So having never played before for a church, there I was center stage, the only one on stage, and playing through the whole thing, prophetically.

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I had prayed to God before going for him to remove my stage fright and let me play to the best of my ability. I guess I didn't mention that I only meant the one song, lol.

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But it was good, it loosened me up. There even was a time when the sound system failed and a dancers music didn't come up, so I just played for 10 mins while they fixed it, lol.

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Let me tell you about this song. I had not played it correctly once in the two weeks I practiced it. I played it for the people in church, in rehearsal, but I didn't do a very good job. Still they had faith in me I guess. Or in God's ability to make me play it right. I only started to improvise on it, and hour before church at home.

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When it came time to play the song, I got nervous, for about 3 seconds, then all of a sudden the song started flowing out of me. On the second verse I really went off on it. while I was going off on it, I was filled with the Holy Spirit, and it felt like I was floating off the chair. My whole body was filled with a great energy. (sounds nutz?) When I was finished, I looked up and the Pastors wife was crying her eyes out, and a few others too. I felt tremendous, like I did what I was supposed to do.

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All my life I was looking for God, for some proof that he exists. For some reason the holy Spirit, was never taught to me that well. But it is so important in understanding God, and how I felt. I was filled with the Holy spirit many times this past couple months, but not to the extent when I was playing.
Acts 1:4
If all things are in place, you too can feel the Holy Spirit. It is greater than any drug or drink. It is Truth in its ultimate form. You will understand it, because it will come from inside of your own body, and you won't deny yourself.

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Then on Easter Sunday I got baptized and then I was asked to play with the band. I was a little lost because they added some songs I didn't know, and the keyboard there, messed up on a song. But at one point when I was playing what I knew, I looked out at the congregation, and it was awesome. I saw people dancing in their seats, people crying their eyes out, people singing, and raising their hands to the Lord. I was a little to busy trying to do everything right with the band to really feel what was going on. But the amazing thing was that I wasn't nervous at all. This is coming from someone who has been nervous in front of crowds for the last 34 years of my 38 year old life. ( in my mind I am 13 still).

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This week the guitarist isn't going to be there, and we are going to use 2 keyboards. We got some great stuff that we practiced. I am going to try and make a tape and some how get the song to you. If it comes out good.

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Peace.

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As much as I want everyone to meet Jesus, I don't wish that scenerio on you.Some of the people closest to me in my life, did not understamd what I went through, but as I explain it to them, they are starting to understand. Plus I made it a point not to change who I was in their lives, but to make it better, by loving more. Last thing I want to be is all Holy, holy, Mr. righteous.In trying to do this, you get a clear picture of the struggle between good and evil, and your mind is a battle field. But if you turn to the Lord for answers, it all works out. Thanks for believing It wouldn't need support from another believer
But even that is subjective.

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Agreed, at least until one of us sees a bonafied miracle, where there is no chance of subjectivity.

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I have heard of one from a good friend, but I have yet to see the paper work on it.

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The first part again is purely subjective, the second is well... meaningless.

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Yes, I understand your point, but there are instances where I have seen the whole room filled with people, and the spirit started moving, and everyone was on the floor, even by-standers who weren't even paying attention to what was going on. Then a whole bunch of people were converted at the same time.

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Means nothing - I've convinced people there are ghosts in the room, done cold readings etc - people are sadly easy to fool. We had a show here recently where a fella called Darren Brown went to the states and got people to believe just what you describe - he did it to show how easy it is to get people to buy into such concepts.

Yes, I know that. You don't know me, but I do not fall into that category, you'll have to take my word on it. That is why I humble myself, and say it was either the day I went crazy, or the day I met God.The most important thing about my experience with God, was that it happened when I was by myself.

If you don't mind me saying, I'd hope you stay unhappy with that answer. Given you know your own faith is subjective and dear to you. You must see that a Muslim's faith is just as subjective and dear to him?It's a shame your church leaders can't understand that. Ever thought of finding a more open-minded church?

I wouldn't say it's all the leaders, but I have heard that answer. As far as open minded churches, I would say this one ranks high up there. Where else can you go and see your Pastor ride his harley into the church and arounf the congregation for a small group kick-off on Sunday morning, while we play born to be wild? I can't really speak for muslims and their faith. The ones I know are pretty cool about their faith, and not all that religious anyway. Even the hasidic jews I know and work for, we have conversations about faith and God.What I find is that dealing with someone you would think is an ok person, you find someone, no matter the religion, even if they are atheist, are people that follow their hearts. Of course there is always some residual dogma, even for an atheist (atheistic dogma, lol) and I have found people like this to be more "Christian" than most Christians.This only confirms to me what Jesus did for us, the vail being torn, and the temple is us now. Doesn't matter what label we have on the outside, but what is inside our hearts is what matters. God is there, whether you recognize Him or not.We are by-products of our surroundings, and how can christianity have a chance when there are so many untrue Christians. People in this forum will cite this and that about Christianity, but rarely have anything to say about Jesus directly. Usually if they do, it is easy to tell how confused they are about it, and it's really hatred towards the churches, and not Jesus Himself.An interesting statistic, if all the church members in the US tithed, there would be enough money to feed alll the starving people in the US, and have a surplus. So where does that leave us?Maybe someone like you is more Christian than me, but you don't know it? My Pastor agrees with me, but won't say it out loud to everyone, because some people just won't get it, and think he is a heritic.In short, it's about your heart. Maybe when God looks down at us, he doesn't even see all the religions.

Well I'm not at all religious, but if there IS a God I'd like to think the same.All religions offer ways to seek the guidance of a higher power if one so chooses. I totally respect this. What I don't respect is the need of some people of faith to denigrate other faiths - to claim preferential treatment from God, so to speak...Edited by RickJB, : Typos.