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Author Topic:   Consciousness Continued: A fresh start
Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 46 of 84 (312974)
05-17-2006 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Christian7
05-17-2006 6:08 PM


A Physical Psyche?
quote:
quote:
How does the soul manipulate the brain w/o being physical or communicating with the brain?
The soul is not physical in the sense that is has no physical properties such as shape, color, density, size, position, etc. It is indeed physical in the sense that it can interact with the brain. For the most part I say that the soul is non-physical.
(1) OR is the *immortal soul* completely metaphysical (beyond psychology)? It seems Biblically inferred that the eternal soul has 5 *space-time* senses (Luke 16: "the Rich man in Hell" *seeing* Lazarus and *crying for a drop of water on his tongue*, etc.),
The Biblical soul, it seems to me, operates also in a *space-time* continuum, analogous or parallel to *ours*. If a soul is *astral planing*, *dreaming*, apperceiving, rapturing, and/or leaving the body
...Peradventure, it may yearn for a physical space-time continuum, a bodily house. This seems suggested of demons, biblically, as well.
Putting off the *wretched body of death* for a glorious new body is also exhorted biblically.
... As if to infer that this cheap and worthless physical body itself is illusive enough to be essentially metaphysical, with a few scientific guidelines at best.
I mean, what is your physics and chemistry? ...A bunch of illusive QUARKS and quantum mysteries (at best).
Seems to me that the soul interacts directly with light, quarks, and quantum mechanics in the brain. What do you think?

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Christian7, posted 05-17-2006 6:08 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Christian7, posted 05-17-2006 7:27 PM Philip has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 47 of 84 (312976)
05-17-2006 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Philip
05-17-2006 7:04 PM


Re: A Physical Psyche?
quote:
(1) OR is the *immortal soul* completely metaphysical (beyond psychology)? It seems Biblically inferred that the eternal soul has 5 *space-time* senses (Luke 16: "the Rich man in Hell" *seeing* Lazarus and *crying for a drop of water on his tongue*, etc.),
The Biblical soul, it seems to me, operates also in a *space-time* continuum, analogous or parallel to *ours*. If a soul is *astral planing*, *dreaming*, apperceiving, rapturing, and/or leaving the body
...Peradventure, it may yearn for a physical space-time continuum, a bodily house. This seems suggested of demons, biblically, as well.
Putting off the *wretched body of death* for a glorious new body is also exhorted biblically.
... As if to infer that this cheap and worthless physical body itself is illusive enough to be essentially metaphysical, with a few scientific guidelines at best.
I mean, what is your physics and chemistry? ...A bunch of illusive QUARKS and quantum mysteries (at best).
Seems to me that the soul interacts directly with light, quarks, and quantum mechanics in the brain. What do you think?
Yes. I do believe the soul has the capability for the five senses built in. But I wonder, are there some people with extra senses? If such a person was discovered, would we have to revise the concept?
I think that the soul does interact with those things in the brain.
What are your opinions on the soul?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Philip, posted 05-17-2006 7:04 PM Philip has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 48 of 84 (313253)
05-18-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ohnhai
05-17-2006 11:08 AM


quote:
May I ask is a persons 'personality' part of their soul/conciousness?
What you mean is, is a person's CHARACTER part of their soul OR consciousness (which is a component of the soul)?
Personality is what you present to other people.
Now, people have two characters: Their core character (built into their soul.) and their developed character which is made up of the person's genetics, temprament, enviorment and their core character.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ohnhai, posted 05-17-2006 11:08 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ohnhai, posted 05-18-2006 6:36 PM Christian7 has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5163 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 49 of 84 (313292)
05-18-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Christian7
05-18-2006 4:32 PM


Guido Arbia writes:
quote:
May I ask is a persons 'personality' part of their soul/conciousness?
What you mean is, is a person's CHARACTER part of their soul OR consciousness (which is a component of the soul)?
Personality is what you present to other people.
Now, people have two characters: Their core character (built into their soul.) and their developed character which is made up of the person's genetics, temperament, environment and their core character.
Ok I will partly wear you re-wording of my question, but only because Character and Personality are pretty much synonymous.
But I did not mean to ask “soul OR consciousness”. I said soul/consciousness. To ask “soul OR consciousness” is meaningless as even in your reply you make clear that they are the same thing, or at least components of the same thing.
So ”Character’. Let’s take your concept of ”core’ character and look at that. What of you does that core character actually encompass? Does it hold your memories? Whether you are a nice/nasty person? prone to truth or lies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Christian7, posted 05-18-2006 4:32 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Christian7, posted 05-18-2006 6:56 PM ohnhai has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 50 of 84 (313304)
05-18-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ohnhai
05-18-2006 6:36 PM


quote:
Ok I will partly wear you re-wording of my question, but only because Character and Personality are pretty much synonymous.
But I did not mean to ask “soul OR consciousness”. I said soul/consciousness. To ask “soul OR consciousness” is meaningless as even in your reply you make clear that they are the same thing, or at least components of the same thing.
So ”Character’. Let’s take your concept of ”core’ character and look at that. What of you does that core character actually encompass? Does it hold your memories? Whether you are a nice/nasty person? prone to truth or lies?
I have made it clear the the consciousness is a component of the soul. I did not intend to imply that they are one and the same.
Anyways, the core character contains indeed what you ultimatley are concerning the choice between good and evil. Now I am talking about deliberance here, not some case in which an insain person goes nuts and goes on a killing spree. That would be a problem with the brain.
Your core character DOES NOT hold your memories. The hippicampus of the brain stores your memories in the brain.
Now, when you get to heaven or hell, either God gives you back certain memories that you had on earth or your soul carries that once you die.
I can't argue that the soul can retain memories because in order to do so I would contradict my original post. If I wanted to argue this I would have to ammend it but I don't see any reason for assuming this as of yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ohnhai, posted 05-18-2006 6:36 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ohnhai, posted 05-18-2006 9:06 PM Christian7 has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5163 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 51 of 84 (313365)
05-18-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Christian7
05-18-2006 6:56 PM


GA writes:
I have made it clear the the consciousness is a component of the soul. I did not intend to imply that they are one and the same.
Ok the difference between ”me’ and ”my leg’. However, at this point we are arguing semantics. I was using soul/conscious as a catchall.
GA writes:
Anyways, the core character contains indeed what you ultimatley are concerning the choice between good and evil. Now I am talking about deliberance here, not some case in which an insain person goes nuts and goes on a killing spree. That would be a problem with the brain.
Interesting. When an insane person deliberates and chooses to go on a killing spree it’s an aberration of the brain but when a mentally ”healthy’ person deliberates and chooses to go on a killing spree its because of his/her soul?
GA writes:
Your core character DOES NOT hold your memories. The hippicampus of the brain stores your memories in the brain.
Yes indeedy.
GA writes:
Now, when you get to heaven or hell, either God gives you back certain memories that you had on earth or your soul carries that once you die. I can't argue that the soul can retain memories because in order to do so I would contradict my original post. If I wanted to argue this I would have to ammend it but I don't see any reason for assuming this as of yet
{my Bold}
Not wanting to be rude but you made that up didn’t you? Did you think I was going to ask ”how do we know who we are in heaven without our memories?’ and then think ”Ok, God gives us back our memories once we get there.’ since, as you state, to claim that memory travels to the afterlife in the souls would contradict your own points.
To me your concept of a soul, speaks nothing to me of a persons individuality but more of a morality checksum that is temporarily loaned to an individual for their span. For that matter ”Soul’ seems to be very much a ”learned behavior’ rather than an entity in its own right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Christian7, posted 05-18-2006 6:56 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Christian7, posted 05-19-2006 8:10 AM ohnhai has not replied

  
mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 84 (313378)
05-18-2006 10:49 PM


Preceptions
It is true that this world for you is all about your soul using your brain that uses the input. This input is about preceptions, even time is perception. But, athiests and materialists strongly disagree to this simply because this view of the world in terms of perceptions and existance of souls completely demolishes their believe in matter as being absolute and further supports the existance of God.

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ohnhai, posted 05-18-2006 11:00 PM mr_matrix has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5163 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 53 of 84 (313380)
05-18-2006 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by mr_matrix
05-18-2006 10:49 PM


Re: Preceptions
No it doesnt, because to demolish the scientific view you would have to be able to demonstate how this non-physiacal construct of a 'soul' directly affects the physicality of the human brain.
By that I mean construct an experiment where we can observe the soul directly affecting the brain. You would have to make predictions and have the borne out by your experiments. Then you would have to have your papers pass peer-review. All of this to even have a chance of demolishing the scientific model.
The simple unprooven assertion of the existance of a soul means nothing.. you have to 'prove' the existance of a soul for your argument to hold any kind of water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mr_matrix, posted 05-18-2006 10:49 PM mr_matrix has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by mr_matrix, posted 05-18-2006 11:10 PM ohnhai has replied

  
mr_matrix
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 84 (313384)
05-18-2006 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ohnhai
05-18-2006 11:00 PM


Re: Preceptions
First of all, the so called "scientific model" is based on materialism and not all scientists view science with disbelief in God. Second, an experiment for the existance of soul: i'll give you a simple experiment that every one tried in his/her life. If a person swears at you or says a word that hurts your feelings, your body is totally unharmed, so what is it that hurts inside you? It is the consiousness of the soul. In addition, when a brain is disected all you can find in it is just a mass of fats and proteins. So what is it that thinks, feels, judges, decides and performs all the consious deeds. It is simply your soul, the brain is just a tool for the soul. You cannot have an absolute believe in the brain because it too can be easily decieved. Take the example of dreams where your brain is decieved into seeing what seems to be reality but it is in fact just a dream.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ohnhai, posted 05-18-2006 11:00 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5163 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 55 of 84 (313404)
05-18-2006 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by mr_matrix
05-18-2006 11:10 PM


Re: Preceptions
Conversely why are you afraid to accept the possibility that what you are, ( i.e. the thinking feeling deciding bit of you) is simply an emergent property of the billions of synaptic connections in that lump of grey matter called your brain? Why invent this intangible phantom element to make up for your incredulity at the idea that your brain is the entirety of what is doing the thinking.
If this concept of the soul was correct then you should be able to remove all higher brain functions from the human brain and just leave the motor controls. If you view on the soul is correct then this should have no affect on that persons cognitive abilities. After all it is the soul that does the thinking right? Does the feeling, deciding, loving, hurting: surely you don’t need all that extra brain baggage?
So fancy giving it a go?
OK that aside. If I were to offer you one of two diamonds on my out stretched palms.
On one hand you see a large and shiny and well.. daimondy, diamond. Street value I say is huge (many, many thousands).
The one on the other hand I tell you is vastly more valuable but it is invisible you can’t see any trace of it, you can’t feel it hefty mass, your hand passes through it then you try and examine it. You say I’m lying that there isn’t a diamond there. I assure you there is because I KNOW there is.
Why don’t you take my word for it? The invisible diamond is the best thing you could ever choose, but why do you not believe my assertions? I know the diamond, it is real and it could be yours. All you have to do is believe me when I tell you it is real.
Now which diamond do you want?
Edited by ohnhai, : edited for readability

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 60 by Philip, posted 05-19-2006 2:11 PM ohnhai has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 56 of 84 (313462)
05-19-2006 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ohnhai
05-18-2006 11:48 PM


Re: Preceptions
quote:
After all it is the soul that does the thinking right? Does the feeling, deciding, loving, hurting: surely you don’t need all that extra brain baggage?
If you think this is my perspective you haven't been reading my posts correctly. I said that the soul consists of purely the consciousness and the free will. The brain aids in thinking. The soul is merely the person themselves. The core character is in the free will. So of course if you remove the higher level functioning their will be problems with the mind. The mind is the result of interactions between the brain and the soul.
quote:
The one on the other hand I tell you is vastly more valuable but it is invisible you can’t see any trace of it, you can’t feel it hefty mass, your hand passes through it then you try and examine it. You say I’m lying that there isn’t a diamond there. I assure you there is because I KNOW there is.
I don't think you understand the concept of non-physical. If it is not physically there you can't pass your hand through it. It doesn't have position or size.
quote:
Now which diamond do you want?
So a dimond is capable of consciousness? If we were talking of conscious dimonds I would pick the non-physical one. Otherwise, reason will tell me to pick the real dimond. Of course, no one could own the non-physical one just as no one but yourself and God can own the non-physical soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ohnhai, posted 05-18-2006 11:48 PM ohnhai has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 57 of 84 (313463)
05-19-2006 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ohnhai
05-18-2006 9:06 PM


quote:
Interesting. When an insane person deliberates and chooses to go on a killing spree it’s an aberration of the brain but when a mentally ”healthy’ person deliberates and chooses to go on a killing spree its because of his/her soul?
Well, if it is deliberate its not insanity. People just call it that to give them an excuse.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Chronos, posted 05-19-2006 11:16 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Chronos
Member (Idle past 6226 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 58 of 84 (313507)
05-19-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Christian7
05-19-2006 8:10 AM


Well, if it is deliberate its not insanity.
You don't think that insane people make deliberate decisions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Christian7, posted 05-19-2006 8:10 AM Christian7 has replied

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 59 of 84 (313527)
05-19-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Chronos
05-19-2006 11:16 AM


You don't think that insane people make deliberate decisions?
What I meant before was that insain people are not given the full awareness to be able to make coherent decisions. Therefore they are not reaching the full potential of the soul's abiltity to decide. So, a decision made by an insain person is not deliberate in the sense that it is not aided by coherent thought. It is deliberate in the sense that they intentionally chose that course of action.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 60 of 84 (313568)
05-19-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ohnhai
05-18-2006 11:48 PM


Re: Synapses vs. soul
...an emergent property of the billions of synaptic connections
Seems opposite to me.
i.e., Synapses (at the subatomic level) seem as invisible emergents of the soul? Not vice-versa.
The psyche (soul) first, then the psychology.

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ohnhai, posted 05-18-2006 11:48 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
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