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Author Topic:   abstinece-only sex education
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 196 of 306 (313615)
05-19-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by macaroniandcheese
05-19-2006 5:41 PM


Re: misunderstanding
I do bite, but usually only when bitten, which is very often the case from you -- even in both posts from you that I answered -- but I'm glad we avoided it this time.
Anyway, I haven't been advocating anything about sex as such being bad and evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-19-2006 5:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-19-2006 7:12 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 197 of 306 (313620)
05-19-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by CK
05-19-2006 6:11 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
Do you have a source or a link for this claim?
David Horowitz and Peter Collier were among the first to recognize the problem which started in San Francisco. Here's an excerpt from an article at Front Page Magazine, 1997:
Fourteen years and more than 300,000 deaths ago, Peter Collier and I wrote a story for California magazine about the AIDS epidemic in San Francisco. At the time the virus had not yet been isolated and there had been only 3,000 fatalities nationally. But it was already clear to the medical community that the culprit was a retrovirus, that there might never be a cure, that AIDS cases among gays were doubling every six months and that if the behavioral patterns of gays and drug users did not change, there would be more than 300,000 people dead by 1997.
In normal circumstances, the minimal public health response to an impending epidemic would have been to identify the carriers of the disease by mandatory testing of at-risk communities, closing off "hot zones" of the epidemic, such as gay bathhouses and drug "shooting galleries," contact-tracing of those who had been in touch with the already sick and honest public education about the dangers of promiscuous anal sex among gays and needle-sharing among drug addicts.
None of these measures, Collier and I found, was acceptable to a powerful lobby of gay activists that labeled them as "discriminatory" and "homophobic" and made clear to any public health official who advocated them that they would be doing so at the risk of their careers. As a result, none of the standard public health measures were consistently deployed. Instead, a series of politically correct ideas and "community-approved" policies became the only measures feasible for political leaders to advocate, for the media to promote and for public health agencies to pursue.
Also look up Randy Shilts, And the Band Played On at Amazon.com.
Here are a few other comments on Shilts' work:
Wikipedia
http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/may94bronski.htm
http://www.fumento.com/shilts.html
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by CK, posted 05-19-2006 6:11 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by MangyTiger, posted 05-19-2006 9:56 PM Faith has replied
 Message 200 by EZscience, posted 05-19-2006 10:07 PM Faith has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 198 of 306 (313628)
05-19-2006 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
05-19-2006 6:27 PM


Re: misunderstanding
perhaps not. but abstinence-only education does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 05-19-2006 6:27 PM Faith has not replied

MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 199 of 306 (313728)
05-19-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
05-19-2006 6:44 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
At the time the virus had not yet been isolated
identify the carriers of the disease by mandatory testing of at-risk communities
That would have been a really neat trick - identifying carriers by testing for an as-yet unidentified infectious agent.
In normal circumstances, the minimal public health response to an impending epidemic would have been to identify the carriers of the disease by mandatory testing of at-risk communities, closing off "hot zones" of the epidemic
I'm fascinated by the this. Are there any examples of this ever being done for any disease in the US? I'm sceptical of the claim about 'normal circumstances' and 'minimal public health response'.
I can't think of anything in my lifetime in the UK except for animal diseases like foot and mouth a few years ago and H5N1 bird flu currently - certainly nothing in the human population.

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 05-19-2006 6:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Coragyps, posted 05-19-2006 10:12 PM MangyTiger has not replied
 Message 203 by jar, posted 05-19-2006 10:17 PM MangyTiger has not replied
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 1:16 AM MangyTiger has replied
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 1:21 AM MangyTiger has not replied

EZscience
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 200 of 306 (313733)
05-19-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
05-19-2006 6:44 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
Faith writes:
David Horowitz and Peter Collier
Oh yeah. You have some sterling credentials behind this citation.
David Horowitz, a little pseudo-nazi, 'anti-intellectual-elitism', failed-academic-himself, right wing extremist hypocrite who wants to prosecute 'left-wing professors' who actually HAVE academic credentials.
Another pathetic little shill for the christian right who is doing more harm than good for the cause freedom in this country - in his case freedom of speech.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 05-19-2006 6:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by AdminNosy, posted 05-19-2006 10:15 PM EZscience has not replied
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 1:02 AM EZscience has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 201 of 306 (313735)
05-19-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by MangyTiger
05-19-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
I'm fascinated by the this. Are there any examples of this ever being done for any disease in the US?
Up into the 1950's such measures were used for polio, measles, and a few other diseases. I'm not aware of any since, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by MangyTiger, posted 05-19-2006 9:56 PM MangyTiger has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 202 of 306 (313736)
05-19-2006 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by EZscience
05-19-2006 10:07 PM


Ad homenims are a fallacy
That is simply an attack on the individual. I suggest you do better than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by EZscience, posted 05-19-2006 10:07 PM EZscience has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 203 of 306 (313737)
05-19-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by MangyTiger
05-19-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
There is a current plan to do that in the US for Bird Flu. The Polio Epidemic prompted measures like closing the pools and other gathering places for kids during the summer. There was also Elis Island, quarantine of towns for various disease, things like Leper Colonies.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by MangyTiger, posted 05-19-2006 9:56 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 204 of 306 (313740)
05-19-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
05-19-2006 10:17 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
things like Leper Colonies.
Oh yeah.....the Hawaiian island of Molokai was a leper colony up into the 50's. Not a real big tourist destination back then....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 05-19-2006 10:17 PM jar has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 205 of 306 (313756)
05-19-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-18-2006 12:24 PM


I'll explain it to you AGAIN, Faith
how many must die for your "we'll wait and see?"
quote:
Ask the anti-abstinence camp. They're the ones I was talking about. How long indeed before the pragmatic instrumentalist method is shown to be a huge mistake.
Strawman argument.
There is an "anti-abstinence ONLY" camp.
Abstinence-ONLY.
ONLY, ONLY, ONLY.
This means that in a good comprehensive sex-education program, abstience is included as a perfectly viable option along with comprehensive education about preganncy and STD prevention and other sexual and relationship health.
So, please stop using the term "anti-abstinence" to refer to people who want to teach comprehensive sex education to children, because they do NOT hold the position of being against abstinence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-18-2006 12:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 1:08 AM nator has replied
 Message 214 by Silent H, posted 05-20-2006 6:29 AM nator has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 206 of 306 (313787)
05-20-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by EZscience
05-19-2006 10:07 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
Oh yeah. You have some sterling credentials behind this citation.
David Horowitz, a little pseudo-nazi, 'anti-intellectual-elitism', failed-academic-himself, right wing extremist hypocrite who wants to prosecute 'left-wing professors' who actually HAVE academic credentials.
Another pathetic little shill for the christian right who is doing more harm than good for the cause freedom in this country - in his case freedom of speech.
When Horowitz and Collier wrote about the AIDS coverup they were card-carrying Marxists known for their writing for the New Left's Ramparts magazine. Liberals. Lefties.
Like you.
===========================
Late edit: Don't want to start a post for this as it's off topic and maybe you won't even see it, but I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "failed academic." He has a master's in literature from Cal Berkeley, and he's a writer. What's "failed" about that? Is an academic career the pinnacle of life and success in your view? He was among the leadership of the New Left in the sixties and seventies, and has written many books. Radical Son was impressively well written. It's only partisan prejudice that leads you to attack him. He has more credentials of the kind that count than you can boast I am very sure.
And you completely misrepresent his work for academic freedom with your stupid smear remark about "prosecuting" left-wing professors who have academic credentials. There is no prosecution involved, for starters. His objective is to restore the academic function of the classroom against selection processes that hire on the basis of politics as much as academic qualification, and against professors of all wings who intimidate their students with their personal political and other views extraneous to the subject matter of the course. These do happen to be mostly left-wingers, but not all, and the academic freedom proposal covers all professors equally.
Edited by Faith, : to add link
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 207 of 306 (313790)
05-20-2006 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by nator
05-19-2006 11:04 PM


Re: I'll explain it to you AGAIN, Faith
Technically you are correct, but in spirit what I said is the truth. I've pointed out that on this thread everybody thinks there's nothing wrong with sex outside marriage and all the traditional moral boundaries. That's like being against abstinence as such. Even if technically it is presented as an option, a rather weakly defended option I'm sure. But yes, technically you are correct. Mea culpa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by nator, posted 05-19-2006 11:04 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by ReverendDG, posted 05-20-2006 1:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 221 by nator, posted 05-20-2006 9:18 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 208 of 306 (313792)
05-20-2006 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by MangyTiger
05-19-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Quarantine ha!
At the time the virus had not yet been isolated
identify the carriers of the disease by mandatory testing of at-risk communities
That would have been a really neat trick - identifying carriers by testing for an as-yet unidentified infectious agent.
They had visible lesions, Kaposi's sarcoma, flagrant symptoms of full blown AIDS. There were plenty of gross symptoms to test for. And tracking contacts would have helped identify whom to examine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by MangyTiger, posted 05-19-2006 9:56 PM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by MangyTiger, posted 05-20-2006 11:10 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 209 of 306 (313793)
05-20-2006 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by MangyTiger
05-19-2006 9:56 PM


Quarantine
Wikipedia on Quarantine
The word quarantine (from Medieval French une quarantaine de jours, a period of forty days) originates from a 40 day isolation of ships and people prior to entering the city of Dubrovnik (aka Ragusa). The isolation was practised as a measure of disease prevention and merchandise protection related to the plague (Black Death). The original document from 1377, which is kept in the Archives of Dubrovnik, states that before entering the city, newcomers had to spend 30 days in a restricted location (originally nearby islands) awaiting to see whether the symptoms of plague would develop. Later on, isolation was prolonged to 40 days and was called quarantine. According to estimations, between 1348 and 1359, the Black Death wiped out one quarter to one half of the entire population in Europe.
The plague was not the only disease for which quarantine was practised: we can mention the earlier isolation of lepers, the attempts to check the invasion of syphilis in northern Europe about 1490, the advent of yellow fever in Spain at the beginning of the 19th century and the arrival of Asiatic cholera in 1831. Venice took the lead in measures to check the spread of plague, having appointed three guardians of the public health in the first years of the Black Death (1348). The next record of preventive measures comes from Reggio in Modena in 1374. The first lazaret was founded by Venice in 1403, on a small island adjoining the city; in 1467 Genoa followed the example of Venice; and in 1476 the old leper hospital of Marseille was converted into a plague hospital. The great lazaret of that city, perhaps the most complete of its kind, having been founded in 1526 on the island of Pomgue. The practice at all the Mediterranean lazarets was not different from the English procedure in the Levantine and North African trade. On the approach of cholera in 1831 some new lazarets were set up at western ports, notably a very extensive establishment near Bordeaux, afterwards turned to another use.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by MangyTiger, posted 05-19-2006 9:56 PM MangyTiger has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4111 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 210 of 306 (313794)
05-20-2006 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
05-20-2006 1:08 AM


Re: I'll explain it to you AGAIN, Faith
No, this is a distortion of everyones argument, no one has said one way or another about sex outside marrige. you are still making the leap that knowing about sex leads to the act of sex, this is nonsense.
abistince-only education leads to problems because of ignorance, this is an if sinario, though i do not have kids if i did i would tell them everything including its best to wait for marrige, but if they decide not to wait then i want them to know all about the safty precautions
a parent who wants abstinece-only taught is a terrible parent, who is blind to reality by thier beliefs, they don't know the future they can only hope the child does whats best, which they hope is marrige first
limiting what the child knows is the worst thing a parent can do
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 1:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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